Jeremy Allen White on The Iron Claw and the drama of professional wrestling

Jeremy Allen White has made a name for himself playing men on the brink.

Audiences saw it in his breakout role as the self-destructive but whip smart Phillip "Lip" Gallagher on the hit Showtime series Shameless, and again in his role as the talented but troubled chef Carmen "Carmy" Berzatto on the acclaimed Hulu series The Bear, which was recently renewed for Season 3.

Now, White has taken on what is possibly his most challenging role yet as the professional wrestler Kerry Von Erich, also known as The Texas Tornado, in the new film The Iron Claw, directed by Sean Durkin and co-starring Zac Efron.

The real-life Von Erichs were a family of professional wrestling brothers whose abusive father used his sons to try to live out his own failed dreams. Their lives were marred by unthinkable tragedy, which fuelled a widespread myth about a family curse. Five out of the six Von Erich brothers died tragically before the age of 35 — three of them by suicide. 

In a chat with Tom Power on Q, White discusses the film, the parallels between professional wrestling and theatre, and the terror that comes with portraying a real person.

This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

When you immersed yourself in the wrestling world to do this film, what's something that you didn't know going into it that you now know? Was there a part of the wrestling world that maybe you misunderstood? 

Yeah, absolutely. My knowledge of professional wrestling was very limited before I started researching for this film. I had friends who were really engaged with it when I was younger, so I had a peripheral understanding of it, but I really didn't know much.

I'd seen action figures, and I'd seen pictures, and I'd seen big men, and flips, and kicks and jumping and all that stuff. I think I always thought of it as something really physical and athletic — which it is — but in the process of working with these real professional wrestlers and our teacher, Chavo Guerrero, I came to understand just how important and how big storytelling is in wrestling; how important drama and rivalry is, and how much time is spent on building these rivalries. And the importance of the moments in between all the moves, and how it's really those moments in between that capture fans — it's not necessarily the dropkicks or the flips off the corner rope.

I got to talk to Bret Hart one time, and he talked to me a little bit about that. He said, like, "What people don't know about the work we do is that it's wordless theatre. In one match, I have to communicate that I am in a fight with my brother, I have made up with my brother, my brother is now the good guy and I'm the bad guy, and I have to do it wordlessly in 45 minutes."

Yeah, it's like dance, gymnastics, combat, but there's also something magical about it too. Like you said, it's storytelling without the words.

WATCH | Jeremy Allen White's full interview with Tom Power:

I know your folks are stage actors and I know you're very much a theatre kid. Do you see parallels between the work in theatre and the work in professional wrestling? 

Absolutely. I think that's the part of it that I wasn't prepared for. I showed up ready to get punched, and kicked, and dropped and stuff, but then I was surprised how important it was to perform. I guess it can be like theatre, but not like theatre I've done. It's almost more like the circus or something like that, like you're so connected with the audience the whole time. Whereas,  in most theatre, you're hopefully connected to your fellow actor and you're letting the audience in.

Yeah, we're passive viewers in a theatre situation but in wrestling your job is to communicate with the audience and have them kind of feed energy to you. 

Totally. And it's important, I think, receiving that energy, too. I mean, there is such a big difference between the preparation that we did in an empty room with a ring, versus when we got into the Sportatorium that they recreated, and had a live audience of all these background performers engaged with us. I know it helped me so much to give me the confidence in what I felt like I needed to do.

I came to understand just how important and how big storytelling is in wrestling; how important drama and rivalry is.- Jeremy Allen White

What about the other kinds of pressure? I mean, you play Kerry Von Erich, who's known to wrestling fans like me as The Texas Tornado, but some people who are going to see this film may not know the very tragic story of the Von Erichs. Kerry is not with us anymore, so he can't tell his story, and you're in a situation where you have to tell his story to a lot of people who don't know him at all. How was that for you?

It was frightening, to be honest. I had never played a real person before in anything and I was worried for sure. 

I trusted [Sean Durkin] and Sean had been in communication with Kevin Von Erich, who [Zac Efron] plays. I had to just go, "OK, I have a right to be here, and I have a right to give a take on this person." And, you know, to be honest, all of these brothers probably deserve their own films, but this is the amount of time we were given to tell as much story as we wanted to. So, yeah, it was nerve-wracking, but it was nice to have Kevin's blessing.

I remember Kevin told Sean very early on what was most important to him if Sean was going to tell the story; it's just important that the film show the real love and bond between brothers. And so we knew how important that was and that we could focus on that, and that could be our North Star if we were sort of doubting at any moment. As long as we were doing that, I think we were on the right path. 

WATCH | Official trailer for The Iron Claw:

Jeremy, you used frightening and nerve-wracking — I've never really heard those words when it comes to this kind of thing. Why was it scary?

I think it was scary just because you want to do justice. Like I said, I'd never played a real person before and you don't want to show up and do an imitation of somebody. There was a lot of footage that you could find of these men as they were wrestling and they're in the ring, and they had these kind of larger-than-life personas. But then you had to do a lot of guesswork with how these men carried themselves behind closed doors.

I think I just knew how much these men meant not only to their family and friends and people who knew them at the time, but also they're so beloved by this massive wrestling community. I just knew that there would be a lot of eyes on the film and on these brothers, and I think I just wanted to do Kerry's story and these brothers' stories justice. So it made me nervous. 

I understand what you mean. To take on a fictional role is to create an invention of someone, but when you take on someone who actually existed, you're representing them, especially if they're passed on. 

Exactly. I think you've got a certain amount of freedom with a fictional character. No one can tell you anything, really, about that person — it's your invention. In playing a real person, people can have opinions and their own relationship.

Even people who didn't know these men have a relationship with them because they were public people and performers. So to have somebody then come along and show them a version of this person that might not match up to the relationship that they understand, I don't know, it could make them feel a certain kind of way.

The full interview with Jeremy Allen White is available on our podcast, Q with Tom Power. He talks more about The Iron Claw, playing characters driven by masculine industries, and the similarities between himself and his character on The Bear. Listen and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

Interview with Jeremy Allen White produced by Catherine Stockhausen.

Q26:23Jeremy Allen White: The Iron Claw, relating to Carmy on The Bear, and the fear of playing a real person