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The AIH Transcript for April 02, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Homeland insecurity. We reached the former chair of the Democratic Party in Hong Kong who says the new security law proposed by Beijing could spell the end of one country-two systems.

CH: Unfriendly. Facebook has joined the chorus of companies planning to make working from home a permanent option for employees. But here's the catch, you have to have done well on your last performance review.

CO: The camera doesn't lie. He recorded the moment Ahmaud Arbery, a young black jogger, was shot. Now the man behind the lens has been charged with murder. The Arbery's family lawyer tells us why.

CH: Safe but also sorry. New Brunswick is lifting its controversial ban on temporary foreign workers, leaving a whole lot of food producers sorry it took so long.

CO: You Musk be joking. We reached California skin care consultant who fields frequent, not always friendly calls for Tesla CEO Elon Musk because, well, she's got his old phone number.

CH: And thoughts and Breyers. From the archives, an interview that puts the "ass" in classic about a lawyer who took his own donkey into the courtroom. As It Happens. The Friday Edition. Radio that guesses he was pinning his tail on the donkey.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Missing Child Found, Tulsa Churchgoer, Best Laughter

CO: Constable MCNames, has it sunk in yet that that child is safe and back with his parents?

SCOTT MCNAMES: It's starting to sink in, Yeah. It was... it's been a busy few days, but extremely gratifying days. And, yeah, it's... it's starting to sink in. And very happy for the family.

CO: Well, and it took days. And so the search party started to look for the boy Sunday afternoon. And what kind of a terrain were they looking in?

SM: So that area of eastern Ontario, there's a lot of lakes and swamps. It's quite hilly. It's Canadian Shield country, lots of forest, a few little open areas. But it's rough terrain.

CO: And was it much open water, or is it still pretty frozen and covered up there?

SM: Well, on Sunday... I got there Sunday evening at night. [clears throat] Pardon me. And I believe there was a fair bit of ice on the lakes. But by Wednesday, most of it had cleared out.

CO: Yikes! And so you're getting open water at that point?

SM: Absolutely, yes!

CO: And so days went on. Wednesday morning, when you rejoined the search, what was going through your mind by that point? That was three days into it?

SM: Yeah, by then, you know, you still... we've got hope, and we're searching just as hard on the fourth as we are on the first day. But we also, you know, we also understand that [clears throat] it's... the longer this goes, the less chance there is going to be of a happy ending. So we were really, really hoping that... and it was going to be cool and snowing that evening, too. So we were really hoping for a break. And... and, you know, along with the civilian searchers, we were working as hard as we could.

CO: The day that you found him, just at the moment you found him, What were you doing at that point?

SM: Well, I was part of a group of, a... a team of four members. The three other members with me were Greg Verni, Pete Wrigglesworth and Mike Ball. And we were completing the task quite a ways from the command post. And I was just tying a piece of flagging tape to a branch. [chuckle] and I'd looked beyond the branch, and I noticed some blue maybe 20 metres off.

CO: You mean, like blue what? Blue that didn't belong in the woods?

SM: There's no blue in the woods. There's no blue in nature. And it just... it really stood out. And so I just Greg Verni was maybe 20 metres off to my right. And I said, hey, Greg, there's something blue up there. And he ran up there and said, it's him. It's... it's Jude.

CO: And how was the boy at that point?

SM: Well, he was... he was laying down on his stomach. He... he... he looked up at Greg. And Greg... and I was just getting there behind Greg. And Greg yelled out, and he's alive, His eyes are open, He's looking at me. [CO chuckles] So, you know, a lot of emotions run... run through your mind at that time. But the first is just how happy we were that this little boy was OK. And, you know, you work hard, you hope for a happy ending. You really do. But like I said, as the days go by, it becomes less and less likely. So it was extremely gratifying. And I just thought of the family right away and how happy they'd be because I know they've been, you know, a lot of sleepless nights and they've been around our command post the whole time. And I just... and I was really happy for a little boy. I'm sure he was quite scared.

CO: Did you pick up the boy?

SM: I did, yes.

CO: And how did he... how did he feel? Was he wet, cold?

SM: You know what? he was... he… he was quite warm. He was wet. His jacket was wet. His pants were wet. He still had both his boots on. So we took his jacket off. And... and... and between myself and the other... the other members that were there, we said the reason he may be alive, or a good chance why, he was wearing a wool sweater. Now wool can get wet, but it'll still keep the body heat in. And I... and I really think that's one of the main reasons he was in such good condition. He wasn't cold at all. He wasn't shivering. He was just very thirsty.

CO: So he had a good jacket on top of a wool sweater, and he was warm inside, his chest was warm?

SM: He was warm. When I was carrying him back to the command post and back to his parents, I could feel the body heat from him. He was... he was not cold at all. Definitely thirsty. He kept asking for water, and we'd give him a stop and give him a bit of water. But other than that, you know, I think he just closed his eyes on my shoulder and just along for the ride.

CO: What did you say to him?

SM: When I first got there, we... we talked to him, just told him my name, that we're looking... you know, we're happy to find him. The four of us all told him his name. We didn't want him to be scared and that we'd be taking him to his mom and dad, who really miss him. And things like that. We just I'm sure he's been through a horrible ordeal. And very scared. And we just tried to... you know, there's four strangers now looking right at him. We just tried to let them know we're there to help, and everything will be fine.

CO: Poor little guy! So you and him all bundled up in your arms and you took him back. And were his parents back at the site?

SM: They were nearby the command post, yeah. And maybe 200 metres before we got back down the trail, we met up with his mom and dad, and I passed him off to... to them.

CO: What was that moment like for you?

SM: Very gratifying, especially as a parent, I... I can't imagine what they went through, and I'd never want to. But I know how happy they were, and so it makes it all worthwhile.

CO: And when you had sent word back when you discovered him, and you sent word back that the boy was there, what did you say when you... when you radioed that to the command post?

SM: We told the command post. I think there was a little bit of can you please repeat that to make sure that they're hearing us correctly?

CO: What part did they want you to repeat?

SM: That we'd found him in good condition. [CO chuckles] because, like I said, it's day four, it's you know, it's looking more and more bleak. And, of course, we're all working hard for a happy outcome. But as the time and days go by, it's getting less and less likely. So you don't want to make a mistake with the good news.

CO: And you have done these searches before, how does this one... how is this one going to stand out in your... in your career?

SM: Oh, this is... I've been doing this for 19 years now on the emergency response team. And this is definitely number one. This one I'll never forget.

CO: Constable McNames, we'll leave it there. And I appreciate you speaking with us. And I'm so glad you were there.

SM: My pleasure.

CO: Bye-bye.

SM:Bye-bye.

CH: Scott McNames is a member of the Ontario Provincial Police emergency response team. We reached him in Perth, Ontario, about an hour north of Kingston.

CO: La Verne, the picture of you and these hats are just amazing. How many hats do you actually own?

LA VERNE FORD WIMBERLY: I really have never stopped to count them, but I can say since I did post 52 of them, I have 52, and I know I have another box with at least three. So let's just say 55. [CO laughs] And We’ll stop at that. [laughing]

CO: But I mean, it’s radio, so we can't do justice. But these hats are they’re are expansive, wide-brimmed, beautiful, bejewelled things. How do you store them? Where do you keep all these hats?

LVFW: Well, I have them all in huge hat boxes, and I have three bedrooms. And each bedroom has a closet. So they're in all three closets in my home.

CO: [chuckling] Once you get yourself all decked out, and you are very well turned out in these photos, what do you do then on Sundays? What's... what's the drill?

LVFW: Well, since we've had the pandemic and we've been kind of locked down, I Zoom with my family. I have a sister and her husband that live here in Tulsa. And then, she has two children with grandchildren. They live in Arlington, Texas. Then, of course, I go to the restaurant to get something to go to eat since I cannot go and sit in a restaurant. So I do that. And then when the weather is really pretty and nice, we have a place called River Park. I like to go and stay in the car and just sit there and read and watch the people on their motor scooters and bicycles and walking and all those kinds of things.

CO: Now, you didn't mention church service.

LVFW: That's the first and foremost thing I do every Sunday. When I put those clothes on, I'm ready to sit here in front of my computer and I do the church service first.

CO: OK, you know that that most people, what they have kind of like... they don't... they don't like to admit it, but being able to do church service in your bathrobe [laughing] has been something other people have enjoyed. But obviously, you didn't want to do that.

LVFW: I did not. I did not want to get out of a habit. I'm just accustomed to dressing up on Sunday and have been for all of my life. So it was not unusual for me to do that. And I did not want to get out of the habit, so I just continued it. Plus, I felt it gave me a little motivation just to be happy and loving it because I just like fashion. So it was no big deal for me to do that.

CO: Did you expect, did you anticipate, that you would give that same feeling of joy to so many people when you started to post the pictures of you wearing your Sunday best?

LVFW: No, I didn't. First of all, I didn't think that I would be doing it for 52 Sundays. And after I started receiving all of these complimentary remarks, I thought, hmmm, maybe I'm providing a service because most of the people talked about how those messages were inspiring or it was something I needed. They were going through something. Some, of course, had lost family members as a result of COVID, and they were feeling down. It just kind of lifted their spirits and gave them a little hope. So I thought, well, maybe I need to continue to do that. And that's why I did it. Not only for myself but also for others as well.

CO: Once you took on that responsibility, were you concerned? Because people wanted to see a different outfit every Sunday. [chuckling] After you get into months and months of this, were you worried you might be repeating something?

LVFW: There was no real-time that I ever think about repeating anything because years ago when I first started teaching in Chicago, I always kept a monthly calendar to make sure I did not wear the same thing during that month of time. And over the years, I have continued to do that. And I started that because there were several female teachers at my school, Carver Junior High, and they always looked so beautiful every day with their colour-coordinated sweaters, skirts or whatever suits, whatever they had on. And then when I finish high school and got out of college and everything, I'm going to start dressing just like them. And then when I started taking that, it really spoke to me because I thought if they could have had that much effect on me, maybe my dressing for them would also have an effect on them. And they’d want to go ahead and finish school and get good jobs, have nice careers and be successful. So I made it a point to look nice, so they would be inspired to move on and know that they could do some great things as well.

CO: You're making many of us feel like slobs right now. [both laughing]

LVFW: Oh, I don't do that. Don't... don't feel like a slob. Just do what you think is good for you. And I always believe in, you know, what feels right for you. That's what you need to do.

CO: I just wanted to say one last thing. Your pastor, Ray Owens, he told The Washington Post that Dr. Wimberly, her impressive hat collection is merely an outdoor expression of her inner wisdom, wit and grace. What does it mean to you to hear him say that?

LVFW: It just gives me chills to know how people really think about you. You just never know that. And it just gives me a warm-hearted feeling that you're being identified in that capacity, which for me, I try to be encouraging to everyone. And so if I have been an inspiration to anybody, that would certainly make me feel good. And perhaps, too, he may have said it because I'm the chairman of the board of trustees at the church. [both laughing] I think he was sincere. I was just teasing. No, no, no, no.

CO: La Verne, I’ll say you are an inspiration [laughing]. And I think we're all going to start reviewing our... our daily habits during this pandemic and maybe step up our game a bit. [both laughing] Thank you so much.

LVFW: OK. Have a great day. Thank you. Bye-bye.

CO: Bye.

CH: La Verne Ford Wimberly is a member of the Metropolitan Baptist Church in Tulsa, Oklahoma. That's where we reached her. For more on this story - and to see photos of Ms. Wimberly's hats - visit our website at: cbc.ca/aih.

Best Laughter

Guest: Mel Renaud

CH: You could probably use a good laugh right now. Fortunately, laughter is contagious. But unfortunately, because of that other contagion - which is no laughing matter - it's hard to come together right now and share a good hearty laugh with friends. But last night, the laughs were plentiful - and world-class - for one group of complete strangers on a very funny Zoom call:

CH: Some of the highlights from the first-ever World Laughing Championship. The contest took place over Zoom last night and featured contestants from around the world. After laughing her way through national competitions, Mel Renaud qualified for the international competition and was there to represent Canada. We reached Ms. Renaud in Montreal.

MR: It's... it's a free-form. But basically, what... what you do is like you have to laugh like you're already the laughing champion of the world. So you start by saying, I am the world laughing champion, and then you just laugh as much as you want, as hard as you want to put more of a freestyle.

CO: OK, let her rip. Let's have it.

MR: I am the Canadian Laughing Champion! [this is an impressive laugh]

CO: Mel, that was brilliant.

MR: [both laughing] Thank you!

CO: And highly contagious.

MR: Good! [laughing] That’s really the ultimate goal of laughter, you know? Because the idea of laughter is to spread joy and in the contagious aspect is really the key in all this in a way.

CO: But you didn't win the big Laughing Cup, did you?

MR: Not…. not this time. But I definitely plan on trying again. [laughing]

CO: It was a Russian contestant. What did Dmitry Efimov himself do that was so impressive?

MR: Oh, he was… woof, wow. He was what we call the Laughlet, really, a professional laugher. Full of life, and really a beautiful contestant. like it was very, very impressive.

CO: So are you going... you're going to continue competitive laughing then?

MR: Yes, I definitely plan on continuing. It's amazing. I love it.

CO: It is. Well, we'll be following your career, Mel. [laughing] Thanks for the laughs!

MR: [laughing] Thank you very much, Carol.

CO: Take care. Bye.

MR: Bye.

CH: Mel Renaud represented Canada last night at the first-ever World Laughing Championship. She's in Montreal.

CH: This is part of Caroline Shaw's "And the Swallow." A composition about finding a "dwelling place" - a home. And one of many songs carefully chosen by Montreal's Choir of the Church of St. Andrew and St. Paul for their new album, "Distance". The compilation is a pretty incredible achievement during a pandemic that has kept members from singing together as they normally would. But as the choir's director, Jean-Sebastien Vallee, told CBC Radio, the results may have naysayers changing their tunes.

JSV: It does affect the sound quite a bit, especially the first few rehearsals. It makes everybody quite nervous. Singers and choirs are used to sing quite close to each other, maybe a foot between each singer, and then we can hear really well people singing around us. The distance makes it really hard to hear anyone else. So you have to trust and that this is the main thing that changed. And we ended up finding out that it actually creates a better sound somehow in the end. But it requires a lot of trust in the choir to trust our colleagues that first, they will be singing, that you're not the only one singing. And that we are together somehow. So trust was the one point that we worked on quite a bit in the creation of this CD. But we felt musically and emotionally so much more connected. So when I listened to the first version of the album, and that's the fourth one that we record together, and I felt, wow, this is the first of the... of all four CDs that feel so much more connected and less distanced, somehow, even though the distance was part of the process, we find that the resolve is somehow even better than what we could achieve before.

[/sc]

CH: Jean-Sebastien Vallee is the musical director of the Choir of the Church of St. Andrew and St. Paul. He spoke with "Quebec AM" host Alison Brunette this week. The choir's new album "Distance" was recorded with singers occupying the entirety of a massive space where they'd ordinarily perform for large audiences. Here is another of its tracks. This is J.S. Bach's "Komm Jesu Komm."

[Music: Folk]

Tigray, Ethiopia Massacre

Guest: Jan Nyssen

CH: For months, disturbing stories have been trickling out of Northern Ethiopia. There have been mass killings of civilians in the Tigray region, where the Ethiopian army was engaged in fighting with the Tigray People's Liberation Front. And now, we're learning how many people have been killed - and who is responsible. Today, the BBC released an investigative report showing video of one mass execution - which their evidence shows was carried out by the Ethiopian military. Meanwhile, a group in Belgium has been speaking to thousands of people who live in the area,. The group has released many of the names of the victims and how they died. Jan Nyssen is a professor who lived in Tigray. He's leading the investigation. We reached him in Liege (lee-EHZH), Belgium. And a warning, there are disturbing details in this interview.

JAN NYSSEN: What we have is 7,000 identified people with their names, conditions in which they have been killed, who are the perpetrators. But this is just those that are very known, very precisely.

CO: We are talking about somebody who won the Nobel Peace prize. This is Prime Minister Abiy Ahmed. How surprising... when he makes the claims he has made and continues this operation that is killing so many civilians.

JN: Yeah. What do you think the world should understand about this Nobel Peace prize winner? What does the world understand about the Nobel Peace Prize Committee? I mean, in the beginning, we were equating Abiy Ahmed to Aung San Suu Kyi from... from Myanmar, Burma. And I think that the case of Abiy Ahmed is much worse than her case of the of the Burma previous president or prime minister. He continues telling lie after lie. And I don't know I don't know the rules of the... of the Nobel Prize Committee? Maybe it's not possible to take back the Nobel Peace Prize? But at least it should come with a very strong statement.

CO: One of the massacres that you investigated happened at the edge of a cliff. The BBC released a video of that. And I know this… We’ll give our listeners a warning here. It's pretty awful. But can you just tell us what happened there in that one incident?

JN: Basically, they took all the boys from the village, everybody who was in combat age, and they rounded them up. They took them to some place. The video in question is only showing about 18 or 20. And then the video, it's very strange. These soldiers are walking with smartphones and are filming while they are massacring people. And then you see the... the civilians sitting. And not not one that is having... there is not the slightest evidence that they have weapons or something. They are sitting on the... on the ground a bit up from a bit away from the cliff. And then the troops make them walk. And when they reach the edge of the cliff, and on the edge of the cliff, they are shot. They are killed. And then the soldiers, the Ethiopian soldiers, in Amharic, which is the Ethiopian national language, they are talking to each other, only use one bullet per guy. Don't use two bullets. We should have gas to burn them. Also, this type of… of talk, even talking to each other, why are you using two bullets? One bullet should be enough, and so on. You wonder how somebody can... a human person can do such... can do such things?

CO: But who recorded the videos?

JN: The videos have been recorded by the soldiers themselves.

CO: So these are... these are trophies then?

CO: Now, the Ethiopian government says that it’s the Tigray People's Liberation Front that's doing the violence. Did you have any evidence of crimes committed by them?

JN: This type of things, definitely. All the massacres that have been shown on videos, definitely it is not the TPLF who is doing that. Sometimes they are seeing these are... these are criminals that escaped from prison on the moment of handover of power. But what you see on the videos, these are clearly Ethiopian or Eritrean soldiers and not TPLF.

CO: And did you... did you have any witnesses that told you that the massacre had been done by the TPLF?

JN: There are two... there are two cases, two particular cases, where the TPLF or the Tigray forces are sighted.

CO: We spoke with an Ethiopian government person, spokeswoman, in November when this began. And she... she said that this was going to be a short operation.

JN: Yeah.

CO: And we talked about what would happen if it kept on, that these things take on a life of their own. And she felt that she said it wouldn’t. That they were... they were in control. What would you say to the Ethiopian government at this point about their operation? What message would you like your work to send?

JN: The first thing is that whenever people start a war, they will say it will be short-lived. They were saying TPLF are oppressing the people in Tigray. We are going there to liberate them. We have never seen crowds along the road that are waving... waving flags or waving branches of tree, of leaves or something, jubilating when the Ethiopian... no, people who are escaping and running away are getting... are getting massacred. So it's not... not at all a freedom operation like they have been presenting it.

CO: Professor Nyssen, it's a very, very bleak and troubling picture that you're painting. I appreciate that you would speak with us today. Thank you.

JN: Yes.

CO: Bye-bye.

JN: Yes. Bye-bye.

[Music: Glassy guitar riff]

CH: Chances are that a book you once loved is now missing. You can't quite remember if you left it somewhere, or lent it to a friend, or surrendered it in your last pre-move purge. But its tattered cover and dog-eared pages are somehow someone else's to enjoy. In Elle Hoar's case, the someone who inherited her missing book was...her. Except she never knew it had vanished in the first place. It happened when her son stopped by a Little Free Library in Sudbury, Ontario. And last week, Ms. Hoar shared the story with CBC.

[Music: Pop rock continues through Update segment]

CH: Now, a quick update on a story we told you yesterday. Today, Major League Baseball Commissioner MLB Commissioner Robert Manfred announced that Atlanta, Georgia, will no longer be host to July's All-Star Game. It's a pointed protest against severely restrictive voting rules the state passed last week. The league will relocate not just the All-Star Game, but the MLB Draft as well. In a statement, Mr. Manfred said the league, quote, "supports voting rights for all Americans and opposes restrictions to the ballot box...Fair access to voting continues to have our game's unwavering support." Unquote.

CO: Jim, I know you were out looking for metal today, did you have any luck?

JIM BAILEY: I... I did not between fielding all the phone calls and everything else, no, not not a whole lot of luck. And that's typical of most days.

CO: All right. But not like that one very special day when you found this coin. What did you think when you first discovered this in the field?

JB: When I first found the coin, I couldn't really identify it. You know, it was in a cloud of dirt. I could tell it was silver. And I figured it for a Spanish coin, which is typically what we find. And I had a bottle of water with me, and I spritzed it with the water, and I could see Arabic script on the coin. And I was just, you know, I was blown away. And the significance of the coins was apparent to me right away because I knew that Newport, Rhode Island, was a base for piracy in the Red Sea.

CO: So right away, you knew that you find that a 17th-century coin from Yemen is in a pick-your-own fruit field in Rhode Island. How did that happen?

JB: Yeah, that's... that's the thing, you know, I said, oh, my goodness! An Arabic silver coin. How does that wind up in southern New England? And, you know, piracy is the only possible answer because it would be nearly another century before you had ships leaving the east coast of what by that time would be a fledgling United States to trade abroad. There was no trade going on in the 17th century between the American colonies and, you know, the Ottoman Empire and the Mughals, basically, in the East Indies. It just did not happen.

CO: So, did you have any thoughts as to any particular pirate that might have brought that... that coin from Yemen to Rhode Island?

JB: I figured I had it all solved immediately because we have a pirate in Rhode Island, a famous pirate, Thomas Tew. He's one of the first and best-known pirates. Problem was that the coin was dated by 1693. And in doing research, Thomas Tew, he was basically finishing up his first voyage. He was sailing back home by the time this coin would have even been minted. So Thomas Tew was out. But I found out that Thomas Tew did go on a second voyage. He never came home. He wound up basically getting disembowelled by a cannon shot while trying to take a Mughal ship. But he had sailed with five other consort vessels hunting down mogul ships in the Indian Ocean. And the flagship was the Fancy, captained by Henry Every. And that's where the coins come from. And I'll tell you why. The ship that they took was called the Ganj-Sawai. It was the Mughal flagship. It was the royal ship of Aurangzeb, the Mughal emperor. They departed Yemen after selling off all their cotton for gold and silver. The Ganj Sawai was the richest haul in the history of piracy, by far. It was... the estimated value of the gold and silver taken was 325,000 to 600,000 pounds at a time when an English sailor made 18 pounds a year.

CO: Now, this pirate, this captain Henry Every, was... was... was vicious, even by pirate standards. He was at one point the most wanted man in the world. What did he do to this... this ship when he looted it and got the coins, one of which you have found?

JB: Yeah, it's, you know, pirates of the history were not always your dashing, handsome Walt Disney-type characters. They... they were were criminals. And we know from the historical record that some of the victims, there was murder, there was torture, and there was rape of the female passengers. I mean, history can be... can be dark.

CO: But he was a wanted man, right? Because of that... that... what he did to that ship.

JB: Well, what he did is you have to understand that you're talking about, at the time, England was doing quite well trading with India. You had the British East Indies company. And what Henry Every did is you had an Englishman robbing the Mughals, Muslims, in the Indian Ocean. And they, the East Indies company, almost lost their trade rights. Aurangzeb, the Mughal emperor, was furious. And he wanted... there was talk of running the English out of India, which would have changed the course of history, really.

CO: So do you think there are a lot more of these coins out there someplace, or in the Rhode Island area or the New England area?

JB: Just last night, Dr. Kevin McBride, he's an archaeologist who was kind enough to take a look at my research and... and vouch for my efforts, he was contacted by a gentleman who found an Arabian silver coin. And it looks right. And what's fantastic is the coin was found on the banks of the Niantic River. It's only five miles or so from Fishers Island, which is where we know Henry Every ran from some of his men ashore. So this is almost like bank robbers in the getaway car driving down like 50 dollar bills flying out the windows.

CO: OK, so you have a tiny bit of the loot from the bank robbers. Any idea how much is worth?

JB: I just don't know. Whatever someone's willing to pay for it, it's just, you know, you should... you should… you should... you'd get along great with my wife because she's... she's… [chuckling] that's the question I get from my wife.

CO: All right. So your wife and I are on the same plane and this one, [chuckling] but we'll have to let you go, Jim. Thanks for speaking with us.

JB: It's been a pleasure. And thank you so much for having me on.

CO: Bye.

JB: Bye-bye.

CH: Jim Bailey is an amateur historian and metal detectorist living in Warwick, Rhode Island.

Marina Abramovic Mindfulness

Part 3: Forgiveness Pak Encore:

MICHAEL BERG: Oh, my reaction was a human reaction of sadness at the death of any fellow human being. And there are people that loved him, and there are people that are now suffering the same pain that my family and I have suffered. And I cannot, and I will not ever justify revenge because that would justify my son's death.

CH: That's Michael Berg, speaking with "As It Happens" in 2006 about the death of his son's suspected killer. It was an interview - and an act of forgiveness - that elicited quite a reaction. There were those who condemned Mr. Berg for his stance. But there were many who were moved by it. And Peter Katz was among them. He's a Canadian singer-songwriter who heard Mr. Berg's "As It Happens" interview and immediately pulled his car over to write a song about it. In 2018, Peter Katz and Michael Berg joined Carol to talk about that unexpected moment, and everything that preceded it. Here's that conversation, from our archive.

CO: Hello, Michael.

MICHAEL BERG: Hello.

CO: And hello Peter, here in the studio with me.

PETER KATZ: Hello.

CO: It's extraordinary having both of you together.

PK: I feel that too, yes.

CO: Michael, I want to start with you because we heard some of your voice from that interview in 2006 in the introduction, and this is not long after you forgave your son's killer, someone who — a brutal murder of your son. And you said that you realized it was a response nobody wanted to hear. What did you mean by that?

MB: Well, people tried to talk me out of it. I think later that same day of that original interview Larry King interviewed me by telephone. And he kept saying ‘Well, come on Michael, this guy…’ And then he would be a lot more blunt than I would have wished him to be about what he did. And it just seemed like he just couldn't accept the fact, really as if he was accusing me of lying.

CO: And there was a lot of media coverage, right? And not just that, there were a lot of people who responded to you. People said horrible things to you, people in your face showing you photos and images and big banners of your son’s murder, and just so angry with you — someone took a shot at you. There was a bullet through a window at one point, it was just extraordinary.

MB: Yes, it was. Yes, it was.

CO: And how did you deal with that at the time?

MB: To tell you the truth, I think I was still pretty much living on adrenaline. And, as Peter said in his song, I felt like I had nothing left to lose. So I'm not normally as maybe brave or foolhardy as I was as far as exposing myself to possible dangers back then.

CO: You call yourself — you said ‘I'm in the ‘nothing left to lose club’ I think you said in our interview.

MB: Right. Right. Well, there were a lot of us back in the day. You know, I knew a lot of people who had lost children in the war and that's what we called ourselves.

CO: But you came to this point of forgiving al-Zarqawi not immediately. This is something that was a process, it took some months — about half-a-year — and you were describing that to us when we spoke to you in 2006. I just want to play a bit of what you said at that time.

SOUNDCLIP

MB: I have to admit that it took a little bit of time. I never once asked for revenge against him because I knew that that was wrong. I knew that my son would say that that was wrong. But it took me a while, about half-a-year, I think, before I came to the point where I can honestly say that I forgave him. One day I opened up a catalogue that came in the mail that offered a course at nearby Immaculata University that was entitled to ‘Forgiveness: The way to love in a wounded world’ And I thought ‘I'm not a Catholic. I'm not a Christian. Not even a very good Jew, or even much of anything, but I have to take that course.’ And I took that course then I learned what forgiveness is all about.

CO: That was from 2006. Michael what did that course teach you about forgiveness?

MB: Well, I think one of the biggest things that it taught me was that to forgive someone is not to condone what they did. I certainly don't condone what Zarqawi did but it's basically, I would say, not to hate — and it is a process. This sister, Sister Sheila Callaghan, who taught that course at Immaculata said forgiveness is like quitting cigarettes. Sometimes you have to do it over and over again. So it is a process. And she was just so great in presenting things in such a way that anybody could accept them and explaining the nuances of the differences between condoning and forgiving and other things that people often confuse. Ultimately, forgiveness is for the person being forgiven, it's for the person who's doing the forgiving. And it changed my outlook on life in general, on my relations with people especially people close to me. And it's still a tremendous factor in my life.

CO: Is it fair to say that that course changed the course of your life?

MB: It certainly did. It's very fair to say.

CO: And Peter, I think it's safe to say that interview and Michael's words changed your life, didn't it?

PK: Yeah, they did. I just got emotional just listening to it again. And, I mean, it's funny just listening to it in today's Times, 12 years later and realizing that that message is still more important than ever. And at the time I was listening to Michael and as I was listening to this interview I just wasn't expecting the way that it was going to unfold and the reaction that he was describing. And when I found out later in the interview that people called him a coward and had shot at him I just said ‘Hang on a second, the message that this man is saying is that the most courageous, brave choice I've ever heard somebody ever make.’ And it felt like the antidote to this escalating hatred that was happening in the world, and just listening to it again today and it's still the answer. It still remains the answer, it still remains more important than ever. So I’m just so struck by it.

CO: Do you remember the details the situation in which you listened to Michael in this interview?

PK: Yeah, I was I was driving along in my car — and Canadian musician spend a lot of time driving across Canada a lot of time listen to CBC and I would always listen As It Happens. And, you know, it's just one of those things it's on and you're listening to it and you're taking it in. But it's one of those interviews that I just kind of zeroed in on as I clued into what was being said. And to me the part that I was very moved just by Michael's reaction in and of itself, it was a very unexpected reaction. But what really kind of jolted me into action was the fact that, like I said, people shot at him and called him a coward and just put him through even more hell than I — I don't have a son, I don't know what it's like to lose one, let alone into the circumstances that Michael lost Nick. So when I found out that that people were doing that to him I just said that to me is just unconscionable and I need to do something about that and I need to somehow amplify his message. And yeah, the context of it was al-Zarqawi was this target and they were like ‘Hey, we got him and yay victory, mission accomplished,’ that kind of lingo. And they were using, I mean — I don't want to speak for Michael on this — but they were using Nick in the murder of al-Zarqawi as a reason to justify what they were doing.

CO: Revenge.

PK: Yeah.

CO: And the lyrics of your song, I'm just going to read the chorus then we're going to hear it later on so people know — they're not going to miss that. “So I guess I'm going to have to try forgiveness because man, you know, that's all that I've got left. My boy did not deserve this but neither do the rest. I guess I'm going to have to try forgiveness.” How did those words come to you?

PK: Those words came to me right away. I think I pulled over and wrote down those words. And then, as is often the case for me with writing, I kind of have the initial thing and then I knew I needed to just be with it because sometimes the sort of surface reaction is not deep enough and I immediately just cared about it so deeply and I and I knew that I was going to be singing in Michael's voice so I wanted to do it properly. It wasn't just about channeling my own feelings about it. I really wanted to amplify his voice. That was the goal. So I wrote those words down and then I actually ended up seeking out a copy of the interview that you guys had done. And I transcribed it, just so I could kind of practice putting words together in the way that Michael put words together, and really then just kind of worked from there and very carefully put it together.

CO: Michael, when you first heard the song, what was your reaction?

MB: I was overcome, I was totally overcome that in light of all the negative reactions that I had that someone would have such an understanding of what I meant and be so kind and so generous in his respect. It just overcame me. It still does every time I hear it.

CO: The two of you became friends, didn't you?

MB: We did. We still are.

PK: Yeah.

CO: What was the friendship based on? Was it just this moment or did you find you took it to a deeper place?

PK: Luke, who was Nick's next best friend, organized a concert and they created a scholarship in Nick's name they called it Berg-a-palooza and they invited me down to come perform at that concert. And so I went down to West Chester, Pennsylvania. And I stayed in guestroom Luke's house where he told me that Nick would have spent much time and then we did this concert. And I got to meet Michael, we went for coffee together in the afternoon and then I played this concert. And I stood on a stage, and in my view were Nick's friends and family and teachers and Michael and I got to play the song and my whole body shaking just thinking about that moment and how touched I felt to be able to do that and contribute in that way. Snd then several years in a row I went down and did that and then Michael and I were also invited to give a symposium on forgiveness at a college in Philadelphia in 2012 and we got to spend even more time together then, and I remember going for a long walk together in a park and just just enjoying our time together.

CO: I believe a generation difference, isn't there? I mean you would be closer to Nick's age.

PK: Yeah, yeah, I'm in my mid-30s, so I guess about the same as Nick would have been, is that right Michael?

MB: Nick would be 40, so pretty close.

PK: Five years younger, yeah.

CO: I’m was speaking with singer/songwriter Peter Katz, who wrote a song called Forgiveness inspired by an interview and As It Happens with Michael Berg, a man who is on the line from Norfolk, Virginia is someone who forgave his son's killer in Iraq. And I think we need to hear the song I think at this point. So I'm going to ask you to play it for us.

SOUNDCLIP

PETER KATZ SINGING:

You ask me to explain it

Well there’s everything and nothing to say

Some things they happen

And once they do they never go away

They tell you that this life is eye for eye

Well man you know I think that’s all a lie

Oh I will not stoke the fire of this fight, when I know it isn’t right

So I guess I’m going to have to try forgiveness

‘Cause man you know it’s all that I’ve got left

My boy did not deserve this, but neither do the rest

I guess I’m going to have to try forgiveness

You can call me a coward

Call me whatever you chose

Once you could have hurt me

But now, I’ve nothing left to lose

Go on and spite me ‘cause I will not curse his name

Tell me though I’m broken, I am to blame

Well go on, but I won’t participate, in spreading all this hate

So I guess I’m going to have to try forgiveness

‘Cause man you know it’s all that I’ve got left

My boy did not deserve this, but neither do the rest

I guess I’m going to have to try forgiveness

They shot at me for speaking out against this tired war

Said "How can you lose one life and not demand one more?"

Well what good will it do us in the end?

There’s nothing that should justify revenge

And I stand now here before you

Living out the hardest test

And still I swear the only answer is: …forgiveness

Forgiveness

Oh you know we’ve got to try forgiveness

‘Cause man you know it’s all that we’ve got left

Our boys and girls are watching and they’ve put us to the test

Come let's show them forgiveness

MB: Wow.

CO: It’s fair to say there is not a dry eye in the house here. Michael, I don't know how you're dealing with that.

MB: It's very moving. Very, very moving. Peter has a real talent at touching on emotion.

CO: I think he is a real talent at feeling it. There's a depth to that that, yeah, can only come from an inspiration though Michael and you were the inspiration.

MB: I don’t know what to say.

PK: It’s true, Michael. When I heard your voice on the radio that day I just, I felt like you were one of the bravest people that I have ever heard and it's been such a pleasure to get to know you and call you my friend. And I really just, I feel honored that I get to be of service to your message. And in my career that was the very, very beginning of me as a singer/songwriter and kind of testing the waters. And that song really was the affirmation that I needed, the confirmation that I needed that there was a place for my voice, so it's also changed my life in many ways.

MB: Well, you gave me hope for the human race because, as I said before, so much of the reaction was so very, very negative. And on that day that Zarqawi died, the interview with CBC, I think was the only one that was not adversarial. Your reaction has to be the most positive reaction I ever got to anything I said. And you did it with such emotion and love. I mean, you can just feel it through the words and your voice.

CO: What do you think your son Nicholas would think of all these developments, from the song to our conversation, how would you respond?

MB: Well, I don't know because he was a very modest and shy, in a way, person. And he probably wouldn't like all the publicity or people saying good things about him, I guess. I mean, he was just that kind of a person and his political views very different from mine. But, I think I said this in the original interview, he once told me that although our views were different he was proud of me for getting out and expressing mine — as I was of him for doing what he believed in.

CO: Peter, I can tell you have something you want to say to Michael and I’m going to just ask you if you want to have the last word here?

PK: I just wanted to say to you, Michael, you know, I wish I could have gotten to know Nick, but I feel like as the son of somebody, I know that he would be really proud of you and what you've done. And I'm really proud of you and I also want you to know, Michael, that I don't see you as a God-figure or something and I've appreciated that you haven't tried to paint yourself as anything other than a human being. You've always made me feel like this is a real thing, it doesn't take other worldly powers to be able to make a choice like you made it. It just takes that tapping into your humanity and doing the hard thing. Your message of forgiveness has helped me through the last twelve years in an immense way, and that moment of hearing your voice on the radio that day and writing that song just fundamentally changed my life in a huge way. So thank you.

MB: You deserve all the success you've had. And I too wish that Nick could have been on that walk in Wissahickon Park that you and I took. That would have been great.

CO: I admire both of you and I appreciate so much to have a chance to speak with you have you both together. Thank you both.

MB: You're welcome.

PK: Bye, Michael.

MB: Bye, Peter.

[/sc]

CH: Canadian musician Peter Katz joined Carol in the "As It Happens" studio in 2018. Michael Berg - whose son Nicholas was killed in Iraq in 2004 - joined them from a studio in Norfolk, Virginia. And you can find that interview on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

April 02, 2021 Episode Transcript

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