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The AIH Transcript for July 24, 2018

Hosts: Laura Lynch and Marcia Young

Prologue

LAURA LYNCH: Hello, I'm Laura Lynch.

MARCIA YOUNG: Good evening, I'm Marcia Young. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

MY: Tonight…

LL: She was about to start a new chapter, instead, less than two months before starting university 18-year-old Reese Fallon was killed by a gunman in Toronto on Sunday. Tonight a teacher and family friend remembers her.

MY: No way out. Our guest couldn't save a Vancouver woman who was trapped in a charity donation bin. So now she is calling for design changes to save anyone else from meeting the same fate.

LL: Nothing left. The town of Mati and more than 25 of its residents are gone today, destroyed by wildfires. And a journalist who visited the Greek community described the desolation she saw and feels.

MY: Every picture helps tell the story. And now that his graphic novel is the first ever to make the Booker Prize long list, a Chicago artist isn't sure what conclusions to draw.

LL: First squirrel away money, then it's squirrel away. After 39 years and eight surprisingly athletic rodents Louann Best is finally shutting down her traveling waterskiing squirrel act.

MY: And…Streaming video. An Alberta YouTubers new invention establishes him firmly and fermented Lee as a genius to watch. He rigged his car's windshield wiper fluid sprayer to squirt Kombucha into his mouth while he's driving. As It Happens: The Tuesday Edition: Radio that feels he deserves high sprays indeed.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Greektown Shooting: Fallon, Greece Fires, Kombucha Car

Greektown Shooting: Fallon

Guest: Mark Steel

MY: Today teachers and students gathered at Malvern Collegiate Institute in Toronto to remember Reese Fallon. The 18-year-old was killed in Sunday night's shooting rampage on the Danforth. She had just graduated from high school and was set to attend McMaster University in the fall. She planned to become a nurse. Mark Steel was Miss Fallon's chemistry teacher and a family friend. He was among those at Malvern today. That's where we reached him earlier.

LL: Mr. Steel, can I first of all say how sorry I am for your loss.

MARK STEEL: Thank you, I appreciate it.

LL: How is everyone holding up at Malvern right now?

MS: Today was a big day at Malvern. There was a lot of support for the students, there were therapy dogs, there were grief counselors and people are just very solemn, very sad — shocked. I don't know, it's only been a day and a half, I don't know if people have — I don’t know if I have, you know, put it into reality and realize that we are missing a very important person from our school community.

LL: I can understand that. What are students telling you about how they're dealing with all of this?

MS: Well, I was really surprised. There were students there today that were actually at the scene, that were actually with Reese when it all happened. They were injured themselves, yet they were there. They were there because they needed help. They were there because they knew their friends needed help. They were telling their story in ways that I was really impressed with. It was great to see them and to give them a hug and say ‘I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you made it, stay strong. Everybody's going to need you going forward,’ sort of thing.

LL: You said they were telling their story. What is the story they were telling?

MS: They were with Reese and they heard something, they heard noises, didn't know what they were, concluded that it was gunshots, ran. Some of them received injuries while they were running. I think someone received injuries from the actual bullets. Just the panic that they were experiencing — and I just can't imagine how they're going to — they seem to be doing a lot better than I would have expected. If I was there, if that had happened to me, I just can't imagine. I mean Reese was my student and I loved her and she was she was great. But the relationship that these students have with each other is a little bit deeper than that and it's just amazing for them to be able to say ‘Look this happened to us and we're going to recover, we're going to be strong and we're going to heal together.’ They seemed a lot stronger than I would've expected. And that makes me think that maybe there's more sort of coming to grips with reality in the future and I hope the students get the help that they need going forward.

LL: You were Reese's chemistry teacher. Tell me what she was like as a student?

MS: She was a bright student. I knew her before she became my student. So her mother, Reese's mother, was a caregiver to my two young daughters for about three or four years. So we knew Reece from her helping her mom, Reese knew my children very well. She was due to babysit for us this year. And then she was very excited, I was very excited to find out finally after three or four years of knowing you and your family now I finally get to have you in my class and she was a bright student. She was excited about going into nursing. That was her goal all the way through grade 12. She knew that that was where she wanted to end up. When she told me that she had gotten into McMaster and that she was intending to go there I was very excited for her. And I was very proud of her because she worked so hard. She was always very helpful in the classroom. She helped me, she helped other students. She was always there with a smile and a joke and it's really sad to see — it's really sad to see her go.

LL: What do you think drew her to nursing?

MS: I think it's helping others, caring for others. My wife is a nurse so Reese and my wife would often talk about what it meant to be a nurse and that was one of the reasons why we started the Go Fund Me scholarship. Reese never got to become a nurse, so if we can catch her name to other people that are going on into nursing, other Malvern students that want to take on their career, that was one of the main reasons for our focus on the Go Fund Me.

LL: You mentioned that she was going to start babysitting your kids this summer I’m wondering how your kids are doing?

MS: You know, just to explain to our kids that level of violence that, you know, there was a gun involved and people were shot and Reese did not survive. Like, just telling that story — hearing that story myself broke my heart. And then my wife and I telling that story to our young kids broke our hearts again.

LL: Have you seen Reese's family at all since Sunday?

MS: My wife has. She said that they're obviously, you know, affected in a terrible unimaginable way. I mean, they've been asking for privacy so, you know, we sent our condolences. Reese’s sister, her younger sister, came out to Malvern today and was with her friends at the makeshift memorial, there's flowers in front of Malvern. She seemed to be in a state that she was getting there, she wasn't better but she's getting on her way to recovering emotionally and then I don't know long term. How do you get over the loss of your sister?

LL: As a parent yourself as someone who knew Reese well, how are you dealing with all of this?

MS: Going to Malvern today, I didn't think I would get as much out of it as I did. But seeing my students, seeing a bunch of former students, you know, like 25-26 years old that came by just to say ‘Hello,’ just to say, you know, ‘We’re thinking about you,’ that helped me a lot too. And yeah, I didn't expect to be needing support from them, but I did and when I got there and I was chatting with them just sharing stories and just being together was really important. More important than I thought it would be.

LL: Yeah, I'm wondering it actually if you could share a story? Do you have a particular memory of Reese that you feel illustrates the kind of person that she was?

MS: When Reese first joined my classroom this year in September my daughter Adelaide just started going to Reese’s mum's place for daycare. So I was always jealous that on lunches Reese would get to go home and play with my daughter and I would come back and I would see her in class and be like ‘How was Adelaide today?’ And she would give me little updates about what Adelaide had for lunch and what her mood was like and so on. So that was a nice connection that Reese and I shared and yeah, I was jealous that she got the hang out my kids and I was stuck, you know, in the staff room just eating my boring little sandwich.

LL: It really does sound like she meant a lot to your family.

MS: She did, she did. And the way that my wife and I parent, I think Reese’s parents parented in the same way and they have three daughters, we have three daughters. And now for them to only have two daughters — it's just, it's just shocking. The parallels between our families, I think that that's what makes it the hardest just to imagine what they’re going through.

LL: Again, I am so sorry for your loss but I do appreciate that you've taken the time to share your memories of Reese with us.

MS: Thank you.

LL: Bye, bye.

MS: Bye.

MY: Mark Steel was Reese Fallon's teacher at Malvern Collegiate Institute and a family friend. We reached him in Toronto.

[Music: Somber Ambient Tones]

Marieke Walsh ‘Smile’

MY: She was asking Ontario's new energy minister about Hydro One. But iPolitics Queens Park reporter Marieke Walsh got an answer she really wasn't expecting today. Here's that exchange between Ms. Walsh and Minister Greg Rickford. The question is about a merger between Ontario's Hydro One and American energy company Avista. But listen closely, the minister was more concerned about the reporter's facial expression.

SOUNDCLIP

MARIEKE WALSH: But the Avista lowers your ability to…

GREG RICKFORD: Smile.

MW: Sorry, did you just tell me to smile?

GR: Yeah, smile.

MW: Okay. The Avista deal lowers Ontario's ownership of Hydro One?

GR: Sorry, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not totally sure what you’re…

MW: Right now Ontario has 47 per cent of Hydro One, that would go to 42 per cent when the Avista deal goes through. I'm wondering if that in any way hampers the governments actions?

GR: We're not going to comment on the substance of the Avista deal as it stands right now. That's a decision that was made by the previous government and what we're focused on right now is putting renewed leadership in place so that we can ensure that they'll make responsible business choices on behalf of Ontario ratepayers.

MW: And can I ask you why you think I should smile?

GR: Thank you.

MW: Can I ask you why you think it’s appropriate to tell me to smile?

MY: That was Marieke Walsh, Queens Park reporter for iPolitics with question for Ontario's new energy minister Greg Rickford about Hydro One and about why he asked her to smile. Since that exchange Minister Rickford called Ms. Walsh to apologise for his comment. She says she accepted his apology.

[Music: Waltz]

Greece Fires

Guest: Liana Spyropoulou

MY: A biblical catastrophe. That's how one resident has described their Greek hometown of Mati. And by all accounts the coastal village is a blackened husk today without any signs of life. So far, wildfires in Greece have killed 74 people, 26 of them in Mati — and many more people are still missing. Liana Spyropoulou is a journalist for Bild newspaper in Germany. She visited the burned out village of Mati today. We reached her in Athens. And a warning that some details in this interview are disturbing.

LL: Ms. Spyropoulou, you've been to the coastal village of Mati today. Can you describe what you saw there?

LIANA SPYROPOULOU: I saw death. I saw dead people in their backyards. I think more than 500 houses are burnt down. I saw burnt pets — dogs, cats. The first body I saw, it was the one off an old lady laying in her backyard next to her wheelchair and her oxygen. We found her son, he told us that his mother was there with the lady who was helping her and keeping her company. The lady managed to run but his mother on that wheelchair didn't make it. That was the first victim I saw. Then we started moving around the area and I saw dead people in their cars who tried to escape. But the worst thing was a field with 26 people who died trying to reach the coast and the sea. Most of them were found holding hands or mothers with children in their arms. I've been a reporter for 20 years, I've been in the big fires in Peloponnese back in to since 2007. This is the worst thing I have ever seen, what I saw in Mati today. It was like a war zone. It was like the images you see from Syria after bombings.

LL: It sounds just so devastating everything you've seen. Why are the fires this week in Greece so devastating compared to other years?

LS: Because they were near villages, big villages, with many houses and many people who were on vacation. Mati is an area 45 minutes, or maybe an hour from the centre of Athens. Many Greeks have their vacation houses there. So it's the end of July, the houses were full of people and that's why we have so many victims. Yesterday the wind was crazy. So with a small spark it was very easy to have a big fire after 10 minutes.

LL: Why was it so difficult for people to escape though, were there options for them?

LS: Many people managed to escape. The Coast Guard, together with ferries and about 30 private boats, they rescued more than 700 people from the sea, from the cost of Mati. They managed to go there and many of them stayed in the water for like six hours. So we have hundreds of people that managed to escape. Others didn't make it.

LL: They drowned.

LS: Yeah. Among the victims, now the victims are 74 officially. I'm afraid that they are going to be over 100 at the end. But many of them were collected from boats and the Coast Guard.

LL: Has the response to the fires been enough in your view? In and around Mati there were there were 600 firefighters, 250 fire engines, water dropping aircraft. Has that been enough?

LS: I think, yes. And the disaster happened because of the wind, and the wind was changing directions every 20 or maybe less minutes, so they couldn't do anything.

LL: You have been interviewing a lot of survivors today, in addition to the terrible things you've seen in Mati, in those worst hit areas. Is there a story that is staying with you?

LS: Yesterday night my a best friend, who has a house in Mati, called me — she lives in London now. She told me that her parents were missing. We managed to find them 1:30 in the morning. That's a personal story but it's a story of 100 people and their families, these people are now missing. There are more than 100 missing. And what I told you it's a story of their families. I hope their story ends like my friend’s. It's not only about the people. It's not only about the burnt houses, it's about the missing people right now — more than 100. Imagine their friends some of their families right now, 24 hours after the fire, they don't know where their beloved ones are. Deep inside they know that there are maybe no possibilities to find them alive.

LL: I can hear the weariness in your voice and also a sense of the devastation in your voice as well. I'm wondering for everything that you've seen in the last day or so, how are you doing?

LS: I have to tell you that I covered the refugee crisis also in Greece. So after the bodies of the babies I saw in Lesbos I think I don't have feelings anymore. The refugee crisis just killed my feelings. And now I'm watching everything from the balcony, otherwise I'm going to get crazy. I'm going to need a doctor or drugs or I don't know what.

LL: Liana, I can understand how this is so difficult for you. Do you have anyone to turn to for support?

LS: Yes, thankfully I have my husband and my family and I think these are the best people to go to.

LL: Well, I'm glad to hear that and I hope you do try to take some downtime and just try to take a break from it all. Thank you.

LS: You're welcome.

LL: Take good care of yourself. Bye bye.

LS: Thank you.

MY: Liana Spyropoulou is a journalist for Bild newspaper in Germany. We reached her in Athens earlier today. Ms. Spyropoulou took some photos of the devastation in the burned out village of Mati today. We've posted some of them on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Somber Guitar Strums]

Kombucha Car

Guest:

MY: If you're setting off on a road trip this hot summer and concerned about getting thirsty, one Albertan has a solution he really does not recommend you try at home.

SOUNDCLIP

DANIEL TILLOTSON: Sure am thirsty. Wow. Is that raspberry pomegranate?

MY: What you just heard. Daniel Tillotson on the road drinking kombucha that was squirted into his mouth by the little hose ordinarily used to dispense windshield washer fluid. To discuss this ingenious, utterly pointless car modification we reached Daniel Tillotson in Cochrane, Alberta.

LL: Daniel, what possessed you to do this?

DT: You know, I've been asking myself that ever since I posted it. I don't even have an answer for you.

LL: Come on, where did this germ of an idea come from?

DT: I figured it had been a little while since I posted a video and so I figured I'd throw something together. And this is my throwaway content. This is kind of like I'll just put something out and just like and say I put something out. And lo and behold this is the reaction, I guess.

LL: OK, so walk us through the modification, what did you have to do?

DT: So my biggest concern was just draining the washer fluid. I needed a clean reservoir, I needed to make sure there was nothing in there. And then all I did was — you can do it in any vehicle — you just pop and you'll see the only lines that run to your hood are the windshield washer fluid, and you can just pop it right off and just extend the hose and put it wherever you want.

LL: How long did it take to flush it out to make sure it was okay?

DT: Only did it for maybe like half-an-hour. Did some cold water, did some hot water. I mean, the water that came out at the end still wasn't great, had a bit of a funny smell to it but I was really excited to get the juice in there and just see what happened. I kind of just went for it.

LL: So you use kombucha, had you ever had kombucha before?

DT: I actually haven't tried it before. I bought it specifically for this video and the first time I tried it I took a little sip before I put it in and thought ‘Oh, I probably could have picked a better drink for this.’

LL: Why did you pick kombucha?

DT: I was just playing off of that health kick, organic food thing. The whole vegan parody, I figured kombucha was a fairly appropriate organic drink for that.

LL: Okay, so when you're trying to deal with the fact the liquid coming up through the hole it's not like you put the kombucha scoby floating in the reservoir right?

DT: No, no it's just like gas station kombucha products. I don't think it was very kosher.

LL: Do you know what the scoby is?

DT: I don’t, actually.

[LAUGHTER]

LL: I suspected that. Well, just for your information, it's actually the culture part of it, it ferments it and it's quite solid and you wouldn't want to be squirting that in your mouth, just in case you try it again.

DT: I think that's why I've stayed away from kombucha up until now.

LL: So you've had the kombucha now, are you a fan?

DT: I think my first experience with it is a little bit tainted because it kind of tastes like washer fluid to me.

LL: Watching the video the accuracy of the hose inside the car seems to need a little work. What's the state of the driver's seat today after your experiment?

DT: You know, I cleaned it but kombucha has a very particular smell and it's kind of lingering.

LL: How long were you driving around squirting it in your mouth for?

DT: Probably about a full day. I had to stop and give it a little refill but it stayed like that for a day at least.

LL: What's the best reaction you got?

DT: Just shocking and awe. It's kind of the same reaction as the Internet everyone is asking ‘Why?’

LL: Everyone is asking why? Did people ask you that when you were out on the road?

DT: I could see it in their faces.

LL: Now you were saying you were doing this as kind of a throwaway just to get a video out online. Are you surprised about how much attention you’ve received?

DT: Well, it's kind of — it's happened a lot. So I have a YouTube channel and there's some content where I will spend weeks filming it and editing it and putting my heart and soul into it and it just doesn't take, no one cares about it. It's always just the dumb stuff that people just latch on to — and now here we are.

LL: And so what lesson have you learned?

DT: I think it's just, do. As soon you get the idea just do it — especially the dumb stuff.

LL: Have you got anything else in the works?

DT: I kind of want to try and see if I can cook something with the heat of my engine. I think maybe I'll throw some potatoes in some tinfoil and tuck it into the engine bay and go for a road trip and see if I have a snack at the end of it.

LL: Daniel, that's old hat. You’ve got to figure out something else.

DT: Yeah, that's the thing, I've got to broaden my horizons here.

LL: Okay Daniel, thanks a lot. Take care.

DT: Thanks for having me.

LL: Bye.

MY: That was kombucha car modifier Daniel Tillotson who is in Cochrane, Alberta. And to see what Mr. Tillotson accomplished with just a dream and a lot of work, followed by regret, visit our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Jazz]

Belgian Nude Beach

MY: I guess this is good for birdwatchers but it's a bummer for bird voyeurs. Recently naturists in Belgium applied to establish the country's second nude beach not far from the coastal city of Oostende. The head of Belgium's Naturism Federation, Koen Meulemans, says the beach would have been ideal. For one thing, the location is secluded with no buildings overlooking it. For another, there are so many naturists in Belgium that the only current nude beach is overcrowded. Mr. Meulemans says that in the summer quote “A thousand people face each other on a strip of 400 metres in the town of Bredene,” unquote. But the Flemish agency for nature and woodland had nixed that application for a new nude beach. Officials are concerned about the effect of a lot of naked people on the habitat of a bird called the crested lark. Not the main activities of those naked people such as say, lying on a towel or playing beach volleyball. They're concerned about what they call a quote “subsidiary activities,” of the beachgoers. If you think you know what they mean by “subsidiary activities” — you do. Agency bigwigs are worried that the naturists will explore the dunes and then explore each other on the dunes and that in so doing, they will frighten the crested larks and drive them away. Mr. Meulemans says anyone who would engage in such subsidiary activities is not a true naturist. And of course. he's right. But I guess those officials are concerned that some people who go to a nude beach would just be doing it for a lark and then in front of one.

Part 2: Clothing Bin Death, Booker Prize Graphic Novel

Clothing Bin Death

Guest: Saskia Wolsak

MY: It was a shocking, senseless and some would say preventable death. In the early hours of yesterday morning a woman in her 30s died after getting trapped inside a used clothing donation ban in Vancouver. Saskia Wolsak was one of the nearby residents who came to the woman's aid. We reached her in Vancouver, B.C.

LL: Ms. Wolsak, tell us what happened early yesterday morning? How did you know something was wrong?

SASKIA WOLSAK: Well, I happened to already be awake at about 4:00a.m. and I sleep with my head, especially in the summer, with my head right by an open window. So I heard someone shouting outside and I could tell right away that it wasn't somebody revelling, it wasn't partiers. So I put my head out the window to try to hear what he was saying and he was saying ‘Somebody help, somebody help,’ over and over again, clearly and very insistently. So I got dressed and walked down the block and encountered the situation.

LL: You arrived at the bin. What did you see?

SW: Well, there was a woman's legs and basically from the waist down she was hanging outside of the donation bin door, completely pinned and motionless and there were a couple other people there.

LL: And at that point what did you assume that happened?

SW: Well, I assumed that she had gone in to find some clothes, to find something, to check out what was in there and had gotten stuck.

LL: Now you're saying she was motionless. Do you know what state she was in at that point?

SW: Well, yes. So her boyfriend, her partner was there and another man was there and I think he had been sleeping in his van nearby so he was likely the first other person to show up after her partner showed up. And they both you know had touched her legs and said ‘She's warm, her body is still soft but she's unresponsive,’ and they were deeply concerned.

LL: So did you try to pull her out then?

SW: A few of the men did — came up to her body and very gingerly — you know someone did say ‘Well we should try to get her out.’ But the man, I think the man who had been sleeping in his van, he just said ‘It's not going to be possible, you don't understand, this is how these bins are designed that you can't pull something out or someone out once they're in there like this,’ because there's this other sort of mechanism designed to not be able to sort things out. They determined very quickly that it just was not going to be possible and we had to wait for help to arrive.

LL: So you did call 911 for help, did you?

SW: Yes. So actually that was other neighbours about four down, they opened their door because they too heard the man calling. They were a bit closer to him than I was and they said to me ‘Should we call 911? And I said ‘Yes, call 911’. So that had been done and then we were just in the parking lot waiting.

LL: When the paramedics arrived what did they do?

SW: Well, the police car was the first to arrive and the police officer, a single police officer, he immediately radioed and said ‘We need an ambulance and we need a fire truck because we're going to need tools to get her out.’ When the ambulance arrived there were several paramedics they assessed her because her feet were hanging out and I think her I think they pulled her hand out or something. Anyway, they took her pulse and they said there is no pulse. So at that point the police officer said to the neighbours ‘You should leave.’

LL: What concerns you most then about these charity donation bins after having been through what you went through?

SW: It's a faulty design on multiple levels. Not only can it kill people but also it attracts people. You know, these will — with there being objects, items and clothing in there, it will attract people in need. And people in need, you know, act maybe, you could say irrationally, or act out of that need more desperately. And so the fact that this mechanism has pinned and killed multiple people across North America should really be a red flag for these charities and for anyone involved with them distributing these bins.

LL: In fact, in Metro Vancouver alone, a woman died in a donation bin in 2015. Another man was found dead in a similar bin in 2016. What's going on with the charities, have been paying attention to this?

SW: Well, I have no idea. Maybe different charities choose different styles of bin. I can't generalize and I don't know but I am concerned that there could be an element of discrimination at work where maybe these deaths aren't being considered in the same way. You know, when I spoke to my mother about this the first thing she said was ‘Wow, if it were a child from this neighbourhood someone would be sued and that bin would be removed and all bins would be removed immediately.’

LL: I just want to get your reaction to this. Today, the B.C. Developmental Disabilities Association who are responsible for these bins released a statement saying quote “We've made efforts to prevent people from entering the bins. And we'll continue in these efforts with other charities and bin manufacturers.” I'm wondering what you think of the efforts?

SW: Well, I don’t know what those are. So I cannot comment on that. I don't think there is an obvious sign on the bin seeing ‘danger keep out.’ But even if there were I think it's common sense to know that somebody in need will not necessarily heed warning signs like that. You know, desperation will trump that kind of warning, particularly if such bans are relatively accessible. And apparently this woman had accessed that same bin several times or a couple times before. That's what her partner had said to me. So this is an opportunity to re-examine the system and see if it's really serving people in need or who it’s serving and who it's jeopardizing.

LL: Now that bin that was there has been removed, is that right?

SW: Yes.

LL: Do you think that's the answer, to just get rid of this?

SW: That is the answer to this aspect of this problem. But obviously homelessness specifically, and poverty generally, and the imbalance of wealth is a huge systemic, societal problem and that there are a lot of people thinking about that and dedicating their lives to working on that. But that's a much bigger issue that, of course, needs to be very seriously addressed.

LL: Ms. Wolsak, thank you for your time.

SW: Of course, yeah. Thank you very much.

MY: Saskia Wolsak is a neighbour who came to the aid of the woman who died Monday morning. She is in Vancouver, B.C.

[Music: Upright Bass]

Asylum Seeker Debate

MY: On Parliament Hill today there were some heated words about the heat of words. The Immigration Committee was holding a special summer hearing on asylum seekers walking across the border from the United States. Ontario's new Social Services Minister Lisa MacLeod appeared as a witness. Her Progressive Conservative government says it wants the federal Liberals to take more responsibility for the costs associated with welcoming the newcomers. Liberal committee member Sean Fraser had a question about the responsibility of the Ontario government's language.

SOUNDCLIP

SEAN FRASER: You've described, I think, in an innocent way the use of the terms ‘illegals’ as simply being semantics. The fact is, as Ms. Kwan pointed out earlier, it is a matter of law but it's also very important to recognize that words very, very much do matter. When we refer to people as ‘illegals’ or ‘queue jumpers,’ when we talk about there being a ‘crisis’ when the evidence we hear is actually that there's a well-managed response to this challenge, what it does is it creates a second class of human being that's living within our borders today and that is not something that I'm okay with. There's a very inspirational story about a new-comer family who were making chocolate in Antigonish. my friend Tarek Haddad posted not long ago on Facebook. “I'm so sad how Ontario government is acting against the real Canadian values of openness and welcome by spreading hatred that impacts directly the most vulnerable group of asylum seekers. No one was born to emigrate. But if they are forced to leave their home let's show them some kindness, hashtag kindness matters.” This is the impact intended, or not, that some of the language being used, not just by you but people across the political spectrum are using, we need to be careful. My request for you is when you get back to Queen's Park to have a conversation with your colleagues, and I'll undertake to do the same with mine, that we will be careful in our choice of language because words matter and it's causing a real impact for the people that live and work in my riding.

LISA MACLEOD: So I don't agree with the characterization, in fact, I think when you do this and you suggest this, you're actually contributing to more of the negative tone in this debate. This is a very emotional debate for many people. I have a $200 million price tag that I need you guys to pay for. And you would rather have a debate on words. I would rather have a debate on making sure that I can fund my ministry and the programs that I'm responsible for, and that is children and youth, children in care, children in the justice system, children with autism. It is the Ontario Disability supports, it is Ontario Works, women escaping trafficking, women escaping domestic violence. It is a plan to eradicate poverty in the province of Ontario. So that is who I'm standing up for. For all of the people in this province who rely on my ministry for the services that my ministry delivers. And I have issues with the federal government making policy choices and then expecting the municipalities of Ontario and the province of Ontario to pay for those. So you can have a debate on the dictionary and the thesaurus and I'd be happy to let you do that. I have a job to do and I have very vulnerable people who rely on me to do that job.

MY: That was Ontario's Social Services Minister Lisa MacLeod appearing today before the House of Commons Immigration Committee.

[Music: 90s Pop]

Booker Prize Graphic Novel

Guest: Nick Drnaso

MY: It's never happened before — and the pioneering nominee doesn't know how to feel about it. For the first time a graphic novel has been included on the long list for this year's Man Booker Prize. The book, called Sabrina, is written and illustrated by Nick Drnaso. It's about a woman who goes missing and the Internet conspiracies and rumors that emerge after her disappearance. The Booker judges have described Sabrina as an acute, stylish, intelligent novel about how to survive trauma. And if Mr. Drnaso ends up winning the prize this year he will join the likes of authors Michael Ondaatje, Margaret Atwood, Yann Martel. We reached Nick Drnaso in Chicago.

LL: Mr. Drnaso, congratulations.

NICK DRNASO: Oh thank you.

LL: What was your reaction when you heard that your novel Sabrina was included in the long list of the Booker Prize?

MD: Oh, I mean, I don't want to sound nonchalant about it, but I take all of that stuff with sort of a grain of salt. It doesn't really like spike anything except maybe fear and trepidation.

LL: Why?

MD: I was trying to think of how to answer this question that's being put to me a lot today. I think I figured out that I identify with maybe being somewhat of a loser. And then when you're validated or someone says you won something, it kind of confuses your internal identity.

LL: Well, you know, I hate to do this to you but, I mean, not only are you in the company of major authors like Michael Ondaatje, you're also the first graphic novel ever to appear on the list. I mean, aside from it being a tribute to you, how does it make you to feel that the genre is being acknowledged?

MD: I'm happy about that. I mean, I truly am. I have a lot of pride and just nothing but good feelings for the community. As far as me being a representative or being at the forefront of that, that makes me a little uncomfortable. But if it helps the medium overall then I guess it's a good thing.

LL: For those of us who haven't read the book, can you give us a sense of what Sabrina is about?

MD: It's a fictional story about a woman who goes missing and some of the fallout around that — the supposed narrative of what happened and then other people's interpretation of what happened. But it was kind of born out of some real paranoia and fear and anxiety I was having at the time, just around abduction and just kind of an overall paranoid fearful worldview. I was becoming pretty reclusive and pretty fearful of the outside world, so working through some of those feelings.

LL: So you were writing the book as therapy in a sense?

MD: Yeah. I mean, I thought that maybe since that's what was on my mind that's just inevitable where some of the ideas for fictional stories were coming from. But then acting it out and sort of playing out this fear every day in a story wasn't the healthiest thing to do.

LL: The therapy didn’t really work.

MD: No, not really — maybe coming out the other end with some perspective and some growth as a result. So maybe it was a good thing.

LL: The novel, which I admit I have not read, has some chilling moments but it also feels quite real because strangers on the Internet are picking apart what happened to Sabrina. You talk about your paranoia. What is it about the current state of the world that got you to the point of talking about these things in your book?

MD: It all kind of happened in 2014, something about just the circumstances of my life at the time. So it didn't really have anything to do with the culture, it was very internal and very personal. And those things obviously have always existed, they're just having a moment right now. People kind of, I guess to use the word ‘fake news,’ that's being sort of capitalized a lot in the marketing of this book. But it wasn't — I didn't mean for it to line up with some of those themes.

LL: Yeah, because you mentioned in the past you canceled the book’s publication after the first draft because you felt it was too negative. So you obviously came round. Why?

MD: Oh it's not that I came around, actually, it's just that I didn't know what else to do. And it was just sitting there 95 per cent finished. I don't know how it came around it was just a weird time and it's not as if my personal feeling about the book has changed dramatically or I feel that great about it. So back to the beginning of the conversation about how to feel about wide recognition, it makes the whole thing a little bit trickier to absorb.

LL: I guess so. I mean, I was going to ask what it would mean to you if Sabrina ends up on the short list or even wins?

MD: I haven't thought that far ahead. I'm just choosing not to think about it.

LL: You're just dealing with the right now?

MD: Yeah. I just don't know how this is going to work out. The literary community is a little bit removed from what I'm doing, so I don't know if this is just seen as a horrible affront or something that's going to detract from novelists. You know, that this is just some sort of gimmicky thing that they're doing that. I'm just imagining cynical, mean commentators on message boards.

LL: I hope it's better for you than that. Are you still creating? Are you working on another graphic novel?

MD: Yeah, I've been pretty focused on that and transitioned into another set of fragmented vignetted, short pieces that all slowly build into what will hopefully be a longer book.

LL: Is it later in tone?

MD: I think so. I'm not really interested in going through some kind of visual transformation, I'm more interested in like a tonal transformation or some sort of change in perspective or worldview.

LL: It'll be interesting to see what comes next. Mr. Drnaso, I'd wish you luck but I'm not sure that's what you really want me to say right now.

MD: Yeah, well nice talking to you anyway.

LL: Nice to talk to you. Take care.

MD: OK. You too.

LL: Bye, bye.

MY: Nick Drnaso is the graphic novelist behind Sabrina, which is on the long list for the Man Booker Prize. We reached him in Chicago.

[Music: Guitar]

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July 24, 2018 episode transcript

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