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The AIH Transcript for November 24, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

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CH: Tonight:

CO: Admitting defeat. A former U.S. Marine captain tells us that Washington's drawdown of troops in Iraq and Afghanistan proves what he realized long ago that his country lost both wars.

CH: Pledge of allegiance. A BBC investigation reveals that Rwandans swore fealty to President Paul Kagame's party at a loyalty oath ceremony in London. And our guest says pressure on Rwandans abroad is very real.

CO: Don't come from away. Tensions are high in Newfoundland and Labrador between rotational workers who just want to see their families and people who worry they're bringing COVID-19 home.

CH: Moving pictures. Photographer Edward Burtynsky donates his early work to the school where he developed his craft in the hopes that his large scale photos will have a large scale impact on young artists.

CO: Getting on her highness's horse. After a guest expressed outrage at The Crown's portrayal of Prince Charles as fly-fishing techniques, a listener gallops to the defense of Princess Anne's equestrian prowess.

CH: And burying your head in the Santa. After the pandemic threw a Grinch into the rest of 2020, the residents of an Ontario street thought immediately after Halloween was the best time to start celebrating Christmas. As It Happens. The Tuesday Edition. Radio that understands they had nowhere else to turn.

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Part 1: How an assignment at Ryerson inspired Edward Burtynsky's jaw-dropping industrial landscapes

Afghan Drawdown

Guest: Tim Kudo

CH: Before long, there will be very little American military presence in Afghanistan and Iraq. In his final days as president, Donald Trump is withdrawing almost all U.S. forces. By January, only 2500 soldiers will remain in each country. Tim Kudo fought in both Iraq and Afghanistan. The former U.S. Marine captain wrote about his reaction to the troop withdrawal in a piece that was published in The New York Times today. We reached Tim Kudo in Brooklyn, New York.

CO: Tim, what is it difficult for you in seeing the military drawdown in Afghanistan?

TIM KUDO: I think what's difficult for me is to realize that after 19 years of war, a war that we were attacked in obviously in Afghanistan and one that we unfortunately started in Iraq, that all the people who died, all the people that we killed, and that's not just an enemy, but it's many many civilians, hundreds and thousands of civilians caught in this war -- all of that is basically for nothing. We sacrificed our entire youths, many of us, and now in our middle and older ages, we look back and we see that it was wasted.

CO: Was there ever a time during those years when you thought it wasn't -- that you thought that you were doing the right thing, this is good work?

TK: So I think after 9/11 here in America, most people thought that the war in Afghanistan was going to be what we call the good war. And obviously, the war in Iraq was much more controversial. But that early part of 2002 when we were still just in Afghanistan, I think a lot of people were very committed to that war. Later on as we got into Iraq and obviously became much more murky. But many of us felt that there was an obligation to the Iraqi people and to the Afghan people based around what our country had done -- we couldn't just cut and leave them to genocide or civil war. And so for many of us who continue to serve or joined in those later years, I think that was what was driving much of our thinking. And so when I went as part of President Obama's surge in 2010 to Afghanistan, I hoped that we would be able to salvage the outcomes that we originally hoped to achieve in that country and leave them with a free and fair democracy. And unfortunately, in the years that followed, it became very clear to me that we weren't really committed to winning the war or achieving those objectives. We were more committed to either maintaining the status quo or essentially committing to a withdrawal without realizing what we were willing to sacrifice to attain that. And only recently have we basically kind of abdicated any obligation or responsibility for that country. Even the peace talks with the Taliban right now are basically being taken half-hearted by the Trump administration. So essentially, we've given up and we still have people there that are risking their lives. And none of it really even makes sense anymore. At least at one point, it sort of did.

CO: And so have you concluded that in Afghanistan, the United States lost the war?

TK: Absolutely. Unequivocally.

CO: You mentioned about the good war -- President Obama called Afghanistan, the just war, unlike Iraq, which he didn't regard in that way. I heard that from soldiers and also journalists, aid workers who believed that it was a just war, and some said that their heart had been broken to realize that it wasn't. Was there any redeeming quality in your mind to the war in Afghanistan?

TK: I hope that if there is some kind of cease fire between the Taliban and the Afghan government now that the current government, which is a much better government than the Taliban, much less oppressive and brutal to its people, will hopefully be able to maintain some space in that country for the citizens who live under its rule. But I fear that it will essentially become a fractured country, probably be back into civil war or be taken over completely again by the Taliban. And I agree with your sentiment there that what many aid workers are saying, what many people have said, is that the country in the Taliban era was absolutely brutal towards its people. So it's horrible to me that we gave them a sense of hope and we sat there drinking chai with them, telling them that we were going to stay and that we were committed to seeing this through because we wanted the local villagers to help us and stand with us against the Taliban and the insurgents there. And then we essentially abandoned them. And I don't think yet that the American people or any of the people in the coalition countries have come to grips with that lie and that failure to live up to our word.

CO: There was also this double mandate that -- this is something that the Canadian Armed Forces struggle with in that there was a nation building exercise. You were there to make it safe for girls to go to school, to build institutions, and at the same time, you carried heavy weapons and killed people. Was that contradiction part of the failure?

TK: It's a challenging question because I think that there was an entire doctrine, military doctrine, of counterinsurgency warfare and theory behind it that has worked in some places in the past 100 years. Clearly, it did not work in Iraq and it did not work in Afghanistan. There is a huge challenge between being constantly trained to defend yourself against an enemy, while simultaneously any of the people around you that you're trying to help could be that enemy. And I think that challenge made it nearly impossible for many of us to go there and do the right thing at all times because the enemy exploited that they knew -- the mandate, as you mentioned, made us extremely vulnerable to their tactics of hiding among the population or getting the population to plant bombs. And so you're walking out there and you're trying to build these wells and open these schools. And at the same time, the people that you're helping that are smiling at you may also be trying to kill you and you have no way of knowing.

CO: So it was kill or be killed?

TK: Absolutely, kill or be killed.

CO: On human rights abuses, there are those who point the finger also at the NATO and the United States that there were civilians arrested, they disappeared, they were rendered, they were tortured they were killed sometimes just for sport, as we recently learned from Australia. What do you think the legacy is of our participation in that war and that country with Afghan people?

TK: Like I said in the Times piece, I think that each war that every individual soldier, sailor, airman and marine fought over there is kind of its own war. Each valley is different from the next. Each village is different from the next. So certainly in those places where war crimes were committed, the people there will have an intensely negative view of what we stand for. I think we had an obligation to kind of stand up to the best of our ideals. And clearly we failed that in many many cases. I do think that the prevalence of war crimes and other atrocities like that is rarer than maybe a lot of people might think it is, because I do think that most people who went over there were trying to do the right thing. But even if we exclude these kinds of, you know, hunting of civilians or these horrible things that you read about in the front pages of newspapers, there's accidents that are happening constantly. When I was over there, we were in a firefight and two villagers on a motorcycle came over this hill and we thought that they were trying to attack us. We didn't know. We tried to warn them off. We tried to wave them off and fire warning shots and things like that. And they didn't move. And one of the Marines that I was with swore that he saw a muzzle flash coming from them. And we're in a very very vulnerable position. So we fired and killed them and they had nothing on them. There's no weapons, nothing. We're in a firefight with the Taliban, the civilians kind of enter the battle space, and so you do what you think you need to do to survive -- you kill them, and then their entire families are surrounding you, screaming and crying, taking the bodies to be buried before sundown. And, you know, atrocities like that definitely happen. And they happen with the best of intentions. And so when we send people over to fight in these wars, we need to acknowledge, I think, beforehand that these things are part of our war. A war fought anywhere, for any reason, will include these kinds of horrible events and we're morally responsible for them.

CO: Invading Afghanistan was a mistake?

TK: I mean, with hindsight, I think it was certainly a mistake. But it was very very hard to say after 9/11 that we shouldn't do that. There was a psychological need, I think, in this country for that revenge and for that sense of justice and that overwhelmed any kind of rational thinking. But I think if you went back and you were able to say, when you do this, you're going to be there for 19 to 20 years and you're going to lose this many people and it's going to cost you trillions of dollars, and your kids who haven't even been born when 9/11 happened are going to be fighting in that war -- I don't think anyone would sign up for that.

CO: Tim, I appreciate you being so frank with us and thank you for speaking with us.

TK: Sure, I hope it's helpful.

CO: Yes, it is.

TK: Thank you.

CH: Tim Kudo is a former U.S. Marine captain who served in Afghanistan and Iraq. He was in Brooklyn, New York.

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NL Rotational Workers

Guest: Angela May

CH: Newfoundland and Labrador Premier Andrew Furey has a stern message for rotational workers, follow the rules. Yesterday, the premier announced that workers returning home from outside the province will have to test negative for COVID-19 after self-isolating for 7 days, that's two days longer than before. The change was made as cases and tensions continue to rise in the province. In the past couple of months, there have been cases linked to rotational workers returning home from COVID hotspots such as Alberta. Angela May's husband is a rotational worker at an oil site in Alberta. Yesterday, she publicly shared her husband's Christmas isolation plans. We reached her at her home in Lewisporte, Newfoundland and Labrador.

CO: Angela, you wrote on Facebook that you hate having to post personal info. So why did you?

ANGELA MAY: Because I've been getting a lot of inquiries from my clients and the general public about my situation, where is husband is a rotational worker, and the fact that I operate a hair salon and the pressure was starting to get to me are the clients that refused to come because they think my husband is here and might infect me was COVID. So I felt the need to finally put to rest to all the rumors and questions.

CO: Okay, so where is your husband right now?

AM: He's away at work.

CO: So he's in Alberta?

AM: In Christina Lake, Alberta, yes.

CO: And what are his Christmas plans?

AM: Well, he was planning on taking a week off from his normal schedule for Christmas. But due to all the pressure I'm getting from my clients and everything, he's decided to take a full shift off work, which means he's going to be home for six weeks with no pay rather than his normal two so that he can do a 14-day isolation, get a comfort test and be able to be here in the house with me while I'm working through the Christmas season.

CO: Will he be with you while he's in isolation?

AM: No. Well, according Newfoundland information rules, he is allowed to isolate in the house with me. But my clients are having such a fuss about that because my hair salon is in my house and the fact that I would be in contact with him -- he's arranged with a friend of ours that lives out of the province that has a vacant home there to go there for two weeks so that he's not near me for those two weeks, and my clients can come here with an easy mind.

CO: After his two weeks, he'll get a test or what?

AM: Yes, well, rotational workers in Newfoundland right now -- it used to be five days, but now after they're home seven days, they can get a COVID test. And if it's negative, they were about to come out of their isolation for whatever time they had left. But now it's going to be after seven days and they're still advised not to go in any public places and to wear a mask if he's in contact with me or his mother or father or my family.

CO: Okay, so in order to keep your business going, your husband has to miss a full rotation of work in Alberta?

AM: Yes. Yes.

CO: Just how tense are things in Newfoundland and Labrador right now?

AM: Oh, they're bad. Rotational workers are getting slammed on social media. When my husband comes out of his isolation after his test, he has about two days when he can go to a dentist or go to a doctor or go to the hardware store. And while he's there, somebody will come up to him and say, when did you get home? Have you got your isolation done yet? Have you been tested?

CO: And how have they tried to, I guess, pursue your husband -- I understand he had quite an experience when he was visiting his parents.

AM: Oh, yes. Well, we had actually had six people here for supper for my birthday. And a week later or nine or ten days later -- and his parents live next door, so he's back and forth to visit them -- and nine or ten days later, the RCMP showed up. They got an anonymous call saying that we had a party and we broke quarantine, which we did not. He had his tests done and had his results back so we were free to invite the six people that in our extended bubble in our house. But it's very difficult when the cops show up at your door 9:30 at night and question you about this, and people of the community talking about it "Oh, I heard you had a big party and broke your quarantine." And you've got to explain to them, 'No, we did not.' You know, you had to tell people your personal business and it's very difficult.

CO: This was on a previous visit from your husband.

AM: Yes, when he was home in October.

CO: Of course the issue, I guess, or part of the issue is that Newfoundland Labrador has seen 52 new cases of COVID-19 since September, and about a third of them have come from people who are returning and most of those coming back from Alberta. So there is reason to be concerned, is there not?

AM: Well, yes and no. Until last week, none of those positive cases of rotational workers resulted in another infection. Last week in Deer Lake, apparently, somebody was infected and they had a gathering and now there's a cluster. And there was another one in Grand Bank. But up until last week that had not happened.

CO: The numbers of infections in Newfoundland and Labrador are, I mean, as high as they are and scary as they are for people in your province, they are so much lower than, as you know, most parts of Canada -- especially Alberta, Alberta has just surging cases. Are you worried about your husband going back to work?

AM: Well, I worry even when there's no COVID because he's on a plane and he's brought. The camp that my husband works at and a lot of other camps are miles in the woods. When his crew going, they're in there for the two weeks. They're monitored. He has to eat his meals in a room alone. There's no common area where any of them gather. So the only way he would possibly catch it would be on a plane. And my husband wears a hazmat suit on the plane because I have COPD and he doesn't want to bring anything home that's going to affect me.

CO: Wow. That's a lot of effort to keep you guys safe.

AM: And a lot of them are doing that. So it's not fair that we are being ostracized and treated this way. And, you know, it's not fair -- I mean I have been a hair stylist for 35 years and I had my own business for 18 years, I shouldn't have to lose my business because my husband has to go away for work.

CO: Angela, I appreciate hearing your story. Thank you.

AM: Well, thank you for being interested in it.

CO: Take care.

AM: Okay. You too. Bye.

CH: Angela May's husband is a rotational worker. We reached her in Lewisporte, Newfoundland and Labrador.

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Burtynsky Donation

Guest: Edward Burtynsky

CH: Edward Burtynsky sees the world from a different vantage point than most of us, quite literally. The Canadian photographer has spent decades taking a bird's eye view shots of tailings ponds, sawmills, potash mines, and garbage dumps. The industrial landscapes he captures are as devastating as they are beautiful. But long before he captured these scenes from the air, Mr. Burtynsky honed his craft at ground level in Toronto. He says it was his time at what is now Ryerson University and a school assignment that got him hooked on capturing how humans were bending nature to their needs. Today, he announced he's donating his archival images to his alma mater. We reached Edward Burtynsky in Collingwood, Ontario.

CO: Ed we know that you have taken photographs and films around the world. We've seen your recycling fields in Nairobi, potash mines in Russia. When you were back as a student at Ryerson, what pictures were you taking then as a young thing?

EDWARD BURTYNSKY: Well, the things I actually fell in love with were things around me, which was a lot of nature. So I ended up doing a lot of landscape photographs. And I also did things around the industry in St. Catherine. So I looked at the GM plants and I used to love going to an abandoned factory and all the machinery was still in there, and I'd take pictures there. And the Welland Canal, the ships would go by and I'd be very fascinated with that. So I kind of grew up with industry all around me. And as well as looking at these great ships, which always boggled my mind going through the canals, we can just be right up close with them. We used be able to stand right beside them so you can just see the ships go by, you know, five feet away from you. And that was quite something as a young kid.

CO: So you started off, like many people, taking pictures of nature, but you were drawn to industry. You were drawn to these, well not just wonders of industry, but just the dark side of industry where you created them in sort of their ugliness and their beauty. So what drew you to that?

EB: Well, actually, it was interesting that my first real powerful recollection of industry was my dad worked at the GM plant and there were these large hammer forgers that worked there the whole time. And it was one of the signatures of St. Catherine's, if you ever went down Ontario Street of McKinnon's plant. And the whole area would shake as these forge plants would pound out, apparently it was a steering knuckle for the front steering of a car. And, you know, at the centre, I'm looking at these massive forger's with red-hot ingots and guys in these aluminum suits, it looked like space aliens flipping these red ingots. And just thinking that, you know, this world that I kept hearing as a kid, I knew my dad worked there and all of a sudden being able to see that world. So it always fascinated me that the car that I'd be driving and going by there was created in a place like that. And we never see these places, but they're kind of massive and surreal at the same time. So I think there was just a pure fascination at the beginning that turned to a kind of dread as I began to see how we were expanding it around the world.

CO: And the environmental degradation that you have captured so extraordinarily. But was there something at Ryerson -- did you get directed in some way that led you to do the work that you did?

EB: Well, it was actually this assignment I got in the first month of school there from a teacher called Rob Gooblar, and he said, go out and photograph "evidence of man." Now, I know that would be politically correct today, but that's what it was in 1976. And I kind of saw it as escape card from saying I have to always, you know, be implicated in this -- I can be the observer. It allowed me to kind of think of looking at the world as if I was an alien and if I had to kind of report back to some other intelligent species about what we as a consciousness and species here are doing to the planet. And to me, it was an interesting kind of opening. And I think in some ways I continued along that simple idea of collecting evidence of the greatest examples of human incursions into nature and into the things that we need to survive.

CO: One of the most striking things about your work when it first hit the art scene and the international scene is that you were working in colour. And what was fashionable was to shoot black and white at the time. So what drew you into using colour in these in these huge landscapes in your work?

EB: Colour was largely reserved at that time for commercial work and especially large format, so car shoots and wine bottles and liquor bottles, perfume bottles, you know, had the budgets to make these beautiful glossy double-page spread in magazines. And that's where colour was largely being used at the time. Very few artists were working with it. And I thought as an artist, it gave me a chance to kind of be at a pioneering edge of trying to think of art and photography in terms of colour as well. And I came out of 12 years of shooting nothing but black and white. And at the time, in the mid 70s, everybody was shooting 35 millimetre, black and white, high speed film and doing street photography. That seemed to be the mode that was prevalent at the time. And so this was a real different approach to the medium. And most people studying the four by five were doing commercial work in the studio. So I decided to take that studio camera into the field and then thus began my career in that kind of slow, methodic, you have to get a tripod out there, you have to really sit and think, and it wasn't cheap to shoot large format film. So it really made me stop and think and be very contemplative about the image before I took the picture.

CO: Was there something else in your instruction at Ryerson that led you to this idea that things should be that big? I mean, was it just an idea of go big or go home?

EB: No, I just thought that if I wanted to go into industry and I had the opportunity to look at some very large scale industries while I was putting myself through school, I worked in the mines north at Red Lake and I worked in the factories in GM and Ford. So I saw industry at scale. So I understood that scale was really a part of that world. When I found scale, it seemed that there was a greatest possibility of creating this moment where what I'm showing through the image is something that looks completely surreal, doesn't look like it should be possible, and it always makes us as humans the small actors in our own theatre of our own making. So I was always interested in that we are kind of almost subsumed by our own world that we have created to create our worlds. So it diminishes us as a figure in that landscape.

CO: Now that you're donating your archival images, your early work to Ryerson, to your university, what do you hope the students get out of it? What do you hope the school gets out of having that in its possession?

EB: Well, I think in the work that I've done has been this kind of very methodic progression, and one idea has always led to another. I think what the body of work and having in one place will show is, is that you can take an idea if it's strong and big enough at the beginning and begin to just work it. It's almost like taking one idea and then finding all the facets of the idea, just kind of turning that idea around and around in your mind and looking for other facets for it. It's really about that curiosity and the constant evolution of an idea that can create an artistic body of work over a long duration. And for me, it's over 40 years.

CO: Well, it's a very generous gift, and I hope that the students get out of it what put into it. And it's good to talk to you Ed. Thank you.

EB: Thanks Carol. Take care.

CH: Edward Burtynsky is a world renowned photographer and artist. We reached him in Collingwood, Ontario. And you can see some of the archival photographs he donated to Ryerson University on our Twitter page: @CBCAsItHappens.

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Part 2: Rwanda Diaspora Loyalty

Rwanda Diaspora Loyalty

Guest: David Himbara

CH: The arm of the Rwandan government, it seems, reaches far beyond the country's borders. A BBC investigation recently revealed a ceremony that took place in 2017 at the Rwandan High Commission in London. Reporter Andrew Harding unearthed a video of about 30 people taking a loyalty oath to the country's governing party, the Rwandan Patriotic Front -- promising to fight, "Enemies of Rwanda wherever they may be." The news follows other reports of Rwandans in the diaspora being threatened or targeted by the government of President Paul Kagame. The Rwandan government denies all the allegations. David Himbara says he has been harassed. He's a Rwandan-Canadian activist who used to work for President Kagame. We reached Mr. Himbara in Toronto.

CO: Mr. Himbara, what did you make of the BBC report exposing this so-called loyalty oath ceremony in London?

DAVID HIMBARA: Well, I was not surprised. You know, this goes on all the time. We have a government in Uganda that seeks to control all aspects of lives whether it is inside Rwanda or outside. So swearing in a foreign embassy is basically routine. It's a way of controlling, reinforcing the control mechanism.

CO: The Rwandan High Commission says that it is routine because it's just voluntary, it is just something that Rwandans in the diaspora do in support of their government, there's nothing nefarious or evil about it. What do you say to that?

DH: Oh, well, it's easy for them to say that. You know, that's to be expected. The thing is, if you don't do it, you are regarded or you're considered as the enemy of the state.

CO: And what are the consequences of being considered an enemy of the Rwandan state?

DH: Oh, the consequences can be severe. Usually they take revenge on your relatives in Rwanda. In terms of government officials that fled into exile, it's no surprise that quite a few have been killed over time.

CO: The Globe and Mail, among others, has reported on this over the years. Reporting on the claims that there were death squads dispatched from Rwanda in order to hunt down dissidents, people who criticize the state of Rwanda. Were you aware of that in your own travels or were you ever pursued?

DH: [Chuckles] Well, let me give you an example. I mean these people are dying in exile, it's been going on since the first major thing was in 1998 in Kenya. It has happened in Uganda. It has happened in Mozambique. It has happened in South Africa. Now, I used to live in South Africa myself. I remember in October 2012, we were joking with my friend Patrick Karegeya, the former intelligence chief from Rwanda, who was in exile in South Africa. So we were at my house joking that if the government of Rwanda uses satellite and they see both of us in one place, they knock two of us in one go. So in December, just a few months after we were joking, I came here to Toronto, because I have a family here, for Christmas holidays. And lo and behold, the same guy we were joking with, Patrick Karegeya, he was basically strangled in a hotel in Johannesburg on the 1st of 2013. And in this case, the court, a South African court, determined that this came from Rwanda. The people who did this are known and the government has refused, is not willing to engage with South African government to hand over these people. So there is nothing new in this. As for me, by the way I just mentioned I am Canadian, I decided not to go back to South Africa. I stayed here.

CO: Can I ask you about that because you had been working for President Kagame in Rwanda, he recruited you to work with him to be an advisor, you had been living in Canada for many years. Why did you finally decide to quit? What was it about the work around President Kagame that finally made you flee that job?

DH: I worked for him from 2000 to 2002. Things didn't work out. I left -- I went back to South Africa. Then he convinced me to work for him again from 2006. I fled Rwanda this time for good, in January 2010. One of the reasons is I witnessed a beating -- Kagame beating a senior official. That was it for me.

CO: Mr. Kagame personally beat someone before you? You saw that happen?

DH: Absolutely. You don't have to take my word for it, because later on I did an interview with New York Times and told them this, and then they did an interview with Kagame, he did not deny it. He said, well, I just pushed him. And, you know, the same person who was beaten in 2009, he just died in the prison mysteriously.

CO: And the Rwandan government has denied many many times that it is involved in anything abroad going, pursuing with death squads. But they say at the same time that dissidents, traitors must pay the price.

DH: Yes.

CO: When you were back in Canada, you got a call in 2018 from a friend in Edmonton. What did he say to you all?

DH: You see, when I came back to Canada, I took this danger very seriously. For about a year, I had a city official assigned to me to make sure that I'm okay here. So now fast forward to 2018, this Rwandan person calls me and says, look, I have been instructed to approach you to make sure that you don't keep your campaign against the government of Rwanda by trashing it and writing negative blogs and so on, that you must stop. So I said, well, wait a minute, are you willing to talk to the police about this? And yes, he did. He said, yes, I will do it. He did it. So he spoke to Edmonton police and I spoke to Toronto police as well. So they did an investigation. And RCMP also got involved. And unfortunately, the police has refused to release this report because they say that it's still an ongoing investigation.

CO: And yet when we see what BBC has in this video, this loyalty oath for the people in the diaspora, they proclaim that if they betray the Rwandan government, they must be punished by hanging and that they will pursue enemies of Rwanda wherever they are. So are you still in danger even here in Canada?

DH: Yeah, absolutely. Yes. But you see, this is what the police and the Canadian officials have told me since way back. And I still go by it. I still go with those rules to be safe. First of all, I do not in any way get involved with the Rwandan community -- I do not. So that's one. Number two, I don't travel at night, you know, or in any dangerous corners in Toronto. Number three, I do not travel anywhere on the African continent -- that's out of the question. Of course, I have relatives in Rwanda, I do not talk to them and they don't talk to me because, you know, all these phones and things are monitored.

CO: And you're not alone in feeling concerned for your security. Why do you think the countries like Canada continue to be so supportive of the Rwandan government? And Rwanda gets an enormous amount of foreign aid, why do you think there's not stronger criticism of Paul Kagame?

DH: I think that goes back to the Western guilt of having failed to basically get involved in the stopping of genocide in 1994. Kagame can do no wrong, so they give him foreign aid. Countries like Canada, there is a little bit of opportunism to the credit of the Harper government he had nothing to do with Rwanda but this new government it's actually the one that is closer to Kagame.

CO: You mean the Justin Trudeau government?

DH: Yes, which is rather odd, but I sense there is a little bit of opportunism especially when Canada was trying to get this seat in the U.N. Security Council -- Trudeau actively courted people like Kagame for their votes.

CO: Can I ask you one final question, will there be consequences for you having done this interview with us?

DH: Oh no. [Chuckles] That's one thing I would not stop doing.

CO: I know you won't stop doing. But will doing this interview -- will this cause trouble for you?

DH: No. You know, this problem turned me into human rights activist, which I was not. I was just a boring academic and economist. But having fought this now I have to keep going, there is no stopping, I have paid a price. My brothers are in prison. I have to speak to whoever will listen. I speak to the United States Congress. I have given testimony. There is really nothing to lose and more to gain because the more people listen to this perhaps the more of our politicians also might develop a heart and say, hey it is wrong to be engaging with this government.

CO: Mr. Himbara I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

DH: Bye bye.

CH: David Himbara is a Rwandan Canadian activist. He was in Toronto when we asked the Rwandan High Commission in Ottawa for a response they referred us to a statement issued following the BBC report denying any wrongdoing. It reads in part, "The BBC made false and misleading allegations concerning an event held three years ago at the Rwandan High Commission in London. This story is part of a wider narrative fabricated by various anti Rwanda movements, hostile detractors, some anonymous, and at least one disgruntled former official, David Himbara, who makes wild blanket claims about Rwanda's political system that go completely unchallenged."

[Music]

Brian Pallister

CH: We're all thinking about it, politicians included: what will the holidays look like during this pandemic? Last week, Quebec Premier Francois Legault announced his conditional plan allowing groups of up to 10 people to gather for four days around the Christmas holidays. Family members would be allowed to attend different gatherings. And the province is relying on a moral contract, asking people to isolate for one week before and after. Today, Premier Legault clarified that plan, limiting Quebecers to two gatherings. Now that plan is being criticized by public health officials and even by some people who don't celebrate Christmas. It's as though every province and territory has different rules, which of course they do. And it's why Manitoba's premier can take aim at Quebec while being asked today if he had advice for leaders in Alberta. Here's Manitoba Premier Brian Pallister answering a question from a journalist with the Canadian Press.

REPORTER: What would you say they might learn from Manitoba's case? Because while cases werearising in September and October, there were there were cautionary notes from you and Dr. Roussin about limiting contacts. They were somewhat vague and not very specific, not a very complete crackdown until recently. What advice would you have for Alberta in terms of dealing with the surge that it's starting to see there?

BRIAN PALLISTER: I have a brand new grand-niece in Red Deer so I got a conflict of interest on this one, Steve, thanks for asking. Every premier is doing their absolute best. Every government across the country. Doesn't matter -- politics don't matter here. They shouldn't matter now. I try to tell the opposition that here but they seem to forget. But the fact of the matter is, we're all in this together. But not every province has to take exactly the same approach. And so I don't want to get into quarterbacking other provinces. There are premiers there doing their absolute best. Except to say this, I think it's dangerous what the Quebec premier has decided to announce on Christmas. I think it's dangerous. And, you know, he's got to run that province. And I respect Premier Legault. But I will say to Manitobans, and I have been called by one paper here, I think I was called a number of things, but the Grinch was one of the things. I'm not trying to deprive people of a wonderful Christmas. I'm trying to make sure that this year we define Christmas differently. And the way we define our holiday season this year is that we're doing our very very best to keep all of our family around so that next year we can all be together at Christmas. That's a different way to celebrate. It's not an easy way to celebrate. It's not the normal way to celebrate, but it's the right way to celebrate. And that's the way we have to do it. So this isn't going to be easy. We've got to do it together. And by gosh, when we get through this thing, we'll look back. I hope with pride that we've done the right things. And I think the right thing to do is not to tell people you can get together in a larger group at the holiday season, as tempting as that is. And I think that's a mistake.

CH: That was Manitoba's premier, Brian Pallister today.

[Music]

Early Christmas

Guest: Nighthawk McKenzie

CH: When it comes to Christmas, the residents of Brenyon Way do not mess around. And this year they aren't waiting around either. Three houses on the street in the community of Scarborough, Ontario, are already fully decked out with lights and decorations. And they've been that way since right after Halloween. Nighthawk McKenzie is one of the decorators. We reached him on Brenyon Way.

CO: Nighthawk, what would I see if I were to drive down the Brenyon Way this evening?

NIGHTHAWK MCKENZIE: You would see a whole lot of Christmas lights.

CO: Okay, we often see that on the streets, but this goes a bit further, doesn't it?

NM: Yes, it does. From the moment you turn onto Brenyon Way from Sewells or from the moment you cross over Wickson, you can kind of see this glow in the distance and it gets brighter and brighter as you get closer.

CO: Give us a sense of the tour I would have if I drove down past, I guess, three houses of Brenyon Way.

NM: Yeah, there's three houses. It starts at 222 and ends at 228, which is my address. I'd say about 12000 LEDs, probably about 35 blow-up decorations, 30+ flood lights, all kinds of sparkling LEDs, ornaments such as like different animals, things like that, lots of candy canes, lots of Christmas cheer. And you can hear the music coming when you get closer.

CO: So you have a sound system?

NM: Yes, actually, 222 has a little sound system set up. And I have speakers up in the trees at 228 playing Christmas music throughout the evening.

CO: How many hours of Christmas music do you play?

NM: It's just playing some Christmas Internet radio. It starts at 4 p.m. and it plays until 9:30 (p.m.). It gets at, you know, slightly lower volumes in the later hours. Don't want to disturb the neighbours kind of thing.

CO: Okay, so you've done this before, right? This isn't your first rodeo this Christmas, right?

NM: No, no. For myself and my wife, this is our 10th year. My neighbours to my immediate right, the Patersons, they've been doing it for about 15 years now.

CO: This is a competition?

NM: No, it's not really a competition. It's kind of a collaborative effort, I guess would be the best way to put it. Our neighbours down at 222, they just recently in the last four or five years started decorating -- they celebrate Diwali, the festival of lights. So, you know, that's actually something for them to just, you know, go to it and participate along with us.

CO: Okay, so they so they've joined in. Is this year any more extravagant than previous ones?

NM: It's a little more extravagant. We went out and spent a little bit more money on a few more lights, just to really brighten it up. But that's kind of, you know, pardon the phrase Griswold of me [laughs] but yeah, it's a little brighter than it was in previous years.

CO: Is that to compensate for all the gloom around?

NM: Oh, absolutely. [Chuckles] You know, it's been a gloomy few months. We do Halloween as well. And that's usually a big show for the kids. But due to the restrictions, they didn't have as much fun at Halloween as they normally do. So we were kind of in a hurry to get out there and put something out there to put smiles on their little faces as soon as we could.

CO: What's the decoration or the installation you're most proud of out there?

NM: What am I most proud of out there? Well, this year would have to be our CN Tower. Yeah, we saw that and we picked it up and thought, that’s perfect. You know, we're in Toronto and what better way to stand tall and say we're not going to go quietly into the night.

CO: What do you mean your CN Tower? Describe that for us.

NM: It's eight feet tall, it's silver, it's the CN Tower, and it has 120 blinking, sparkly LEDs. It sits in the middle of our lawn surrounded by 14 little Christmas trees.

CO: Okay so in addition to the CN Tower, you have the sort of the usual Santa Clauses and all of that, right?

NM: Yeah, air blown decorations, everything from Santa Claus, to reindeer, to SpongeBob and all kinds of stuff that makes kids smile.

CO: What are people saying about your decorations?

NM: Oh, we have people coming up the walkway every night. Some knock on the door, some wave through the window, all positive, thank you very much, you know, we appreciate this and the kids love it. And you know that really puts a smile on our face because that's why we do it. You know, make the kiddies smile. We understand that not every adult will appreciate what we've done. We get it. Everyone's got their own thing. But the kids, they're the ones that matter.

CO: Have you had complaints?

NM: None, not directly. [Chuckles]

CO: What indirectly have you heard?

NM: Oh, just some negative comments I've seen here and there on some of the posts about our displays. But it's very few and far between. So as I said, it's not everybody's cup of tea.

CO: Are these from neighbours or from just other Grinches?

NM: Other Grinches. Our neighbours that aren't participating in the decorating, they love it. You know, they offered to come out and help.

CO: What is it that you and your wife like so much about this?

NM: Well, I like to build things and I like light. I just like putting on a show. And my wife, she's always been heavy in the Christmas spirit, loves to decorate both inside and outside. And we spend most of our time together as apartment dwellers, so we couldn't go outside of our little four walls. But since we moved here and we had a front lawn, well...she went nuts and I helped. [Laughs].

CO: So I guess the only thing that's missing from the scene is some snow.

NM: Well, we got some snow the other day, it snowed quite heavily there on Sunday and Monday, and it really made the whole display look finished.

CO: Yeah, but doesn't stick around. So, you know, you need a big dump, don't you?

NM: Oh, I would love a big dump, but, you know, we'll get it. It'll come. You know, we were fortunate enough to get it all set up when it was 20 degrees, I'm sure we'll be wishing for that weather again in the near future.

CO: All right. We'll leave it there. Nighthawk, I hope you have a great Christmas. Thank you.

NM: Thank you. Enjoy.

CH: Nighthawk McKenzie is a resident of Brenyon Way in the Scarborough neighbourhood of Toronto.

[Music]

The Crown

CH: It wasn't the camera angle, it was the angler on camera. On Friday, we introduce you to Dominic Witherow of Chobham, England. He took issue with a glaring inaccuracy in the latest season of The Crown: Prince Charles's fly fishing abilities. As Mr. Witherow pointed out, Josh O'Connor, who plays Charles, is atrocious at it.

DOMINIC WITHEROW: That's a shame they have millions upon millions of pounds and dollars thrown at it. It's exquisite to watch. The acting is superb. The cinematography is magnificent. And then they don't pay any attention to really important details -- important to certain people. There is no question as to the fact of terrible display fishing from a man who in reality is extremely accomplished in that sort he's been doing it his whole life. One of the few things in the show that can be right or wrong, and they get it wrong. It's lazy.

CH: Dominic Witherow of Chobham, England speaking with Carol on Friday, and that prompted this call from a listener.

LISTENER: Hello, As It Happens, it's Wendy calling from Waterloo, Ontario. Although Princess Anne is featured very briefly in season four with the queen bred horse goodwill jumping fences, they really missed a great story within The Crown: Anne competed at the Olympics in 1976 in Montreal. And even when they did show her competing 1971, the Berlin event, the European Championships, they failed to show the most exciting and absolutely life-threatening portion of the type of competition she does. They showed the final show-jumping portion. The middle day of the three day event is absolutely riveting. It's dangerous beyond belief. People gallop across country on horses, flat out over fences that look like telephone poles and they're nailed together. Or they were those jumps don't fall down. They don't move. They're up and down hills. So I really feel they've done Anne a disservice, even though it's clear that she's quite a survivor inside the story of The Crown.

CH: Thanks for calling, Wendy, from Waterloo, Ontario. And if you'd like to read more about Dominic Witherow attempts to rehabilitate Prince Charles's reputation as a fly fisherman, go to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Part 3: Advocate decries police violence against migrants during Paris demonstration

Paris Migrant Camp Clash

Guest: Nikolai Posner

CH: In Paris last night, it was armed police versus asylum seekers in tents. Hundreds of homeless asylum seekers tried to draw attention to their situation by setting up makeshift shelters in the central Place de la Republique. It worked. Police moved in to forcibly remove the tents, sometimes dumping them out with people still inside. Police then use tear gas and chased people through the streets with batons. Nikolai Posner is a French refugee advocate who was at the demonstration. We reached him in Paris.

CO: Nikolai, just first of all, can you describe what you saw last night when the police moved in on these asylum seekers in the streets?

NIKOLAI POSNER: So yesterday we made a camp of tents on Place de la Republique in the middle of Paris. And after one hour, around 150 policemen start to go surrounding the camps and trying to take the people away from tents. And through that, there were starting to beat people and walk over to tents, even if people were inside the tents and they were picking up tents and throwing them away, even if people were inside.

CO: And there was tear gas as well. Can you tell us about the people who were protesting against this and the response to that?

NP: Yeah. So the tear gas didn't come first. First we had to go through different assault. So around, yeah, 150 policemen to 200 that was running at us, pushing us, beating us. But at the beginning we didn't get tear gas. But this continued for around three hours where they were just pressing the group as much as possible and taking people away, putting them on the floor, walking over them. Some people have been hurt.

CO: Some reports are that the police were chasing people through the streets as they tried to retreat and using their batons to hit them. Did you see that?

NP: Yes. Yes, of course. I was part of this group. But this is something that happens again. So once we were at the city, they tracked this down through all the neighbourhoods. So in the little streets there were coming by groups, running after us, trying to pressure us, to beat us. Their main goal was to keep people -- to beat people.

CO: You've done this before, but not really in the centre of the city. Do you think police would have responded differently if you were not in such a well-known part of Paris?

NP: The main thing was that people inside that camp yesterday was men. Before with families, we had somehow the protection of the children. But yesterday it was only men and they had, well, no remorse or anything to attack us.

CO: What is the message you're trying to send about the asylum seekers and their homelessness? What is going on in Paris in particular with refugees?

NP: So last week we had 66 eviction in Paris of refugee camp. This camp was around 3500 people were living in that camp. And the police came for the eviction one week ago. But the thing is, at the end of the eviction, 1000 people had been left on the street and track down like dogs by the police once again because they didn't manage to evaluate the number of people inside. So they didn't even manage the number of solution they would need towards the people. So instead of assuming their own responsibility, they decided to make the people invisible again and to attack them through tear gas, beating up, chasing. And this happens day and night, day and night.

CO: Is there accommodation for the refugees and asylum seekers in Paris? You say that they're evicted over and over again, so is there any place for them to go?

NP: The thing is, when you come to Paris and you want to process your asylum claim, you can be sure that you will be left in the street for at least a few months. So, of course, France has solutions, but we have these clear intentions to put people in the streets once they arrive. And the idea behind is to make it very unbearable and then for the people to not come.

CO: You saw the reaction in the part of the French government. In fact, the interior minister, he tweeted that he said the scenes were shocking and that he ordered the police to provide a full report of how they dealt with all of you in Paris last night. What do you make of that?

NP: First, we find it really hypocritical because once again, the same thing happened one week ago, but last week we didn't have the chance to have media. Yesterday, we had this chance and we were we are very very happy with the following concerns that kind of happened on that day. But coming from that person, that minister, we clearly don't trust him. And from what we saw with the police violence before in France, we will have to keep pressure to make sure that the people responsible will be punished.

CO: The pictures and the video from last night are really shocking to see how police responded. Yet at the very same time, the French government is in the midst of passing a new security law, which would make it a criminal offense to post images of police or soldiers on social media. And so what will that mean for ability to have pictures like this again, will it be impossible to, if this law is passed, to actually have accounts of the police reaction to these demonstrations?

NP: Well, first yesterday, we can clearly see without images, we have no voice. But the main [inaudible] of that law is to give again more power to the police. And here we clearly know that they don't need this. We need to change the image of the police and the way the people behave. And that's going to be the way we will behave also with the police.

CO: Do you think there will be less accountability on the part of police if it's against the law to post images of them?

NP: Yes, of course, because this is something that is happening already without these kind of laws. We have this number that every policeman should wear at all time to be identified. We could clearly see it yesterday none of them had, they are hiding.

CO: Nikolai we will leave it there and we'll let you go. Thanks so much for speaking with us tonight.

NP: Thank you very much.

CH: Nikolai Posner is a French refugee advocate. He's in Paris.

[Music]

Guide Dogs

CH: With borders closed, things are tough even for essential workers, and that includes guide dogs. The Canadian National Institute for the Blind sources, those dogs from breeders around the world searching for a particular combination of temperament, drive, and confidence. But the puppies they've been waiting for just can't make it to Canada. To make matters worse, there's been a spike in demand since the pandemic began. So now the CNIB is scrambling to make ends meet. Here's Diane Bergeron, the president of CNIB Guide Dogs.

DIANE BERGERON: Our dogs are bred in Australia. And with the shortage of flights coming over, in order for those eight week old puppies to get to us, they have to do a circuitous route and it's too hard on the puppy. So we haven't been able to receive our dogs from our breeder. So we're looking for dogs from other programs in the United States, asking if they could potentially help us out with getting dogs.

ROBYN BRESNAHAN: And have you received offers of help?

DIANE BERGERON: Yeah, actually, just last week Leader Dogs for the Blind, which is situated in Rochester, Michigan, provided us with six dogs between the ages of 12 and 15 months. And we got them over here across the border. And, you know, they'll start training hopefully in six months, the six dogs will be able to be matched with six people that we could not have served if Leader Dogs hadn't helped us out.

ROBYN BRESNAHAN: And what are the consequences when people cannot be matched with a guide dog? I mean, how severe is the shortage right now?

DIANE BERGERON: So what we're finding is due to the border closures, people that usually go to the States to get their dogs are not able to get across the border to do that, so they're coming to us. And, you know, it's heartbreaking for me as a person who is blind myself and the guide dog user, I'm so lucky to have a dog right now. But there are so many people that have called me and said, you know, my dog has to retire and I've got no freedom, I've got no independence, and I just want my life back. And it's very difficult when you're used to using a dog as your independence tool and suddenly you're left with nothing.

ROBYN BRESNAHAN: What's your dog's name Diane?

DIANE BERGERON: My dog's name is Carla. She is a two year old golden retriever. And she was actually named to honor Carla Qualtrough, the federal government minister.

ROBYN BRESNAHAN: What would you do without her?

DIANE BERGERON: I don't know what I would do without her. I'm lucky enough that I have family members, but there's so many people out there that don't have people living with them and need this dog as their absolute life. If I didn't have her, I don't think that my job would be able to be done as well. I travel a lot internationally and my dogs and I travel all over the world without any sighted assistance. We just go and do things. I couldn't do that if I didn't have her.

CH: Diane Bergeron, president of CNIB Guide Dogs, was speaking with CBC host Robyn Bresnahan today on Ottawa Morning.

[Music]

Toronto Lockdown

Guest: Taha Yasin

CH: Taha Yasin had a plan to get through the pandemic. He and his partner own Karahi Boys, which dishes out Pakistani fruit from Toronto area restaurants in Scarborough and Mississauga. Business was hit hard by the first wave, so they put their money into outdoor dining. Then came the Ontario premier's announcement of a lockdown last Friday. With COVID numbers rising, Doug Ford gave restaurants in both areas two days before their patios had to be closed. We reached Taha Yasin in Toronto.

CO: Taha, what does this lockdown announced by the province, what does it mean for you?

TAHA YASIN: For food businesses and restaurants, it's really hard as we've been prepping for holidays and stuff. And for the Toronto location, we were working on patios and building that up so if there is a lockdown we would at least have take out delivery and we could at least serve in the patios. But now the patios are closed as well. We invested a lot of money in there, but I mean, we can't do anything about it now.

CO: Well, describe what you had done because you were adapting to the previous restrictions that said, okay, you could do outdoor dining, but you couldn't do indoors. So what had you invested in order to try and accommodate the previous restrictions?

TY: So we already had an open patio. So when this whole thing came up that you can have patios outside so we thought we should capitalize, that could be the opportunity that can take us through the winter. We started working on building the patio, cover it up, and make it heated for customers so they can be comfortable. It's still open from the sides, but at least it will have heat. And even if it snows, people can still sit outside and eat. So we had invested close to 35,000 dollars with the heater, with furniture, with the whole new structure, everything. But it's still under construction right now. It was supposed to finish this week, but now obviously we can't use that space.

CO: Does it feel like you just threw that money down the drain?

TY: I mean, obviously, it hurts at this point. Eventually we will be able to use it. But at this point, obviously, when it's tight, you can move that money towards other stuff, other bills and other payments.

CO: So this is for the next four weeks that these restrictions are in place that make it impossible for you to do anything else but take out. How important are these coming weeks? How much business do you normally have at this time?

TY: December is very busy. It's one of the busiest times before Christmas. And obviously that whole part is lost. For us, big time is the summertime. And then going towards the Christmas area, that is a very busy season. And this year we lost both those times in this year. So it's a major hit for everybody, all the restaurants, all through the industry and even other businesses, everybody's struggling.

CO: Do you think that Doug Ford was wrong to do this?

TY: My personal opinion is I think if they had to close, they should have closed the whole GTA. I live in Oakville. People from Peel and Toronto, they're going to Oakville will restaurants and malls and all these other places. So people go to other places to do and then you may as well close the whole thing and then it just resets, right? This way nothing resets. People just go to other places. And then the businesses which are in Toronto and Peel, they are hurting the most. And it's unfortunate.

CO: The head of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business said that Doug Ford signed the death warrant for thousands of small businesses over the weekend. Would you agree with that?

TY: I mean, yes, there are businesses which are in more affected than -- if you are in a residential area, you might be able to survive as a restaurant. If you are not in a residential area and you're more in financial district and Toronto, and if you had a little bit of office traffic coming, now you will have nothing. I have one of the restaurants that is almost dead now in Toronto downtown. I'm going to have a very hard time pulling that through.

CO: But again, going back to the decision, I mean, I'm sure you're concerned about health and the health of your customers, your family. Do you appreciate this was necessary?

TY: Yes, I appreciate. I think lockdown was necessary. But lockdown should have been in respect to it happened before in different stages. It should have been just a lockdown the whole GTA area for two weeks and then open it up so that's probably more effective than locking down all these small different regions and then all the other regions are open, so people travel to other regions, then nothing resets and people are still meeting other people, because I know for a fact that there are places where people are gathering and all that is happening. So, I mean, it's not very effective, that's what I think.

CO: Are you going to have to lay off people? What happens to your employees?

TY: What we do is we try to keep most of the staff, but we do have to send a lot still a lot of people on ROE.

CO: Can you just tell people what ROE means?

TY: Record of employment. So they have to go on EI. So we have to give them a record of employment to go on EI.

CO: employment insurance. Taha just finally, I know you're taking a big financial hit here, but how much of an emotional hit is this for you? You've only been open for a couple of years. You've worked so hard to get these businesses going.

TY: I mean, obviously it is a huge emotional leap. In our Peel location we just had extended and made the restaurant double. We invested in end of last year. So January we opened next door. So this year we were like, oh, we are going to have a great year. And then this whole COVID happened. And so it is emotional and financial hit from all aspect. But as an entrepreneur, you got to be positive and about this whole thing and just keep thinking it will get better. Vaccines are coming, things will get better. We will pass through and try to be as innovative and positive. I think being hopeful and positive is very important to pull through this thing. Otherwise it catches up to you.

CO: All right. We will try and share your optimism Taha. It's good to talk to you. Thank you so much.

TY: Thank you so much.

CH: Taha Yasin is the co-owner of Karahi Boys. We reached him in Toronto.

[Music]

Happy Birthday Damien

CH: Damien Smith and his family recently moved to Salmon Arm, British Columbia. And in a post online last month, the nine year old's parents said the change had been hard on their son. So they sent out a request: Would anyone be willing to send birthday cards via mail? Well, people seriously delivered. Damien has received cards from around the world, and a video from a guy who grew up a few hours away. Here's some of that video message from Canadian actor Ryan Reynolds.

RYAN REYNOLDS: I relate it to your story or I relate to your story a lot because I also went to a new school when I was a kid, a couple of them actually. And I remember how alienating that felt that I remember how alone I felt and unseen I felt. And, you know, as I've become a borderline grown up, I would say that one of the things I've come to realize is that when you feel, you know, suffering and when you feel bad about something usually you feel like you're the only one. Usually it's because you feel like you're totally alone. And I think the reason that people have grabbed onto this story about you and what you're going through is because they relate to it all across Canada. People all over the world, they're saying, that's me.

CH: That was Ryan Reynolds delivering a message to nine year old Damien Smith. The boy and his mother, Tiffany Trudell, spoke with the CBC this morning. Here's Ms. Trudell describing the moment this weekend when the family surprised Damien with all the cards.

TIFFANY TRUDELL: He took off the blindfold and it was a bit tight. So Damien was a little more focused on that at first until he realized just what was in front of him, which was all of the cards laid out. And we had so many that they didn't sit on the couches. So we kind of had to stack them all on top of each other and then put the presents up against the coach. And Damien opened his eyes and took one look, and you could just tell he did not know what was going on. Like, he had no idea what it was or why. And he is a very reserved kid so he's usually quiet on a good day. And he definitely was overwhelmed and shocked.

CHRIS WALKER: Now, he also had a little message, I understand, from a guy named Ryan. So what did you think when that came along?

DAMIEN SMITH: Shocking. I was froze-shocked.

CHRIS WALKER: You were frozen with shock. What did you think when Ryan Reynolds told you he knew kind of how you felt?

DAMIEN SMITH: I don't know.

CHRIS WALKER: It didn't make you feel better?

DAMIEN SMITH: Yeah.

TIFFANY TRUDELL: He's such a shy kid,.

CHRIS WALKER: Tiffany apart from the cards and messages, you know, like the one we just heard. The community also came out to wish you a happy birthday. What was that like?

TIFFANY TRUDELL: Oh, I was in tears. I think that it's probably been the best day of my life to watch my son realize that, like people all around the world care about him. He's had a hard life and he's had a hard, emotional life. And to watch, like his eyes light up and realize and see and understand that he is worth it. And he's something and he's special and he's important and he's loved -- it made me feel whole.

CH: That was Tiffany Trudell and Damien Smith speaking with the CBC's Chris Walker this morning on the program, Daybreak South in Kelowna. Happy birthday Damien.

[Music]

Midnight Oil

CH: The biggest hit of 1988 in Canada was this song. [MUSIC: Billy Ocean's "Get Outta My Dreams, Get Into My Car"] And the second biggest hit of that year was this song. [MUSIC: Rick Astley's "Never Gonna Give You Up"] Further down the Top 100 chart from that year in Canada, you've got Phil Collins, Huey Lewis and the News, and regrettably, Kokomo by The Beach Boys. It was the 80s and the pop hits, as usual, were about dreams, cars, love and rhyming Bahama with pretty mama. So the sixth biggest head of 1988 was a real anomaly. [MUSIC: Midnight Oil's "Beds Are Burning] Some guy with a strangled voice from a country halfway around the world singing about Indigenous land rights in Australia probably didn't have record executives salivating. But the song was huge, not just in Canada but all over the world. And Midnight Oil became international pop stars without compromising their political message. This week, 32 years after that song made the charts and 49 years after the band first formed, the Sydney Peace Foundation is awarding its gold medal for Human Rights to Midnight Oil, putting them in the company of influential figures like Nelson Mandela, the Dalai Lama, Costa Rican diplomat Christiana Figueres, and Julian Assange who at this stage might be considered the Kokomo of that group. It's not the kind of honour that would be bestowed on, say, Rick Astley. But then, unlike other pop stars who made the Top 10 in the 80s, Midnight Oil's commitment to actual political change has always been off the charts.

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November 24, 2020 Episode Transcript

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