New books, new masks: What the first day back looked like at this Montreal school

MG: Reading, writing and face masks? A whole new agenda for schools across Canada this year. In Quebec, unlike other provinces, in-person school is mandatory, unless you have a medical exemption. It's also one of the first provinces in the country to get back into the classroom. Last week, The Current tagged along for the first day of school like no other at Bancroft Elementary in Montreal. Bancroft is part of the English Montreal School Board in the heart of the city. And here is our documentary, A Very Different Year.

SOUNDCLIP

JACKIE ALVARADO: There we go, miss. Come on. Come on. We need to leave in about 20 minutes. You have school, missy.

VICTORIA: Oh, yes.

MATT GALLOWAY: Victoria is digging into one of the most important breakfasts of the year, waffles on the first day of school.

VICTORIA: I'm going to put on syrup. Sometimes I like putting on whipped cream or sometimes Nutella. It's so good. Mmm good.

MATT GALLOWAY: The kitchen windows are open, letting in the warm September air and Victoria lives in downtown Montreal. Her mom, Jackie Alvarado, is on butter duty. Dad, Darryl Wyse, is at the table, laptop open, his workday already started.

JACKIE ALVARADO: Tory, you want me to cut it or you want?

VICTORIA: You can cut it.

MATT GALLOWAY: Victoria's older sister is heading back to high school today too, but that doesn't start until later, so she gets to sleep in.

VICTORIA: I actually miss my school. I actually miss learning.

MATT GALLOWAY: Not Victoria.

VICTORIA: I didn't know grade 1 was going to come this fast.

MATT GALLOWAY: She has got a lot to say.

VICTORIA: That would be really fun. But we have to do homework now. We have to do math. I mean, like, I'm really good at math.

MATT GALLOWAY: Mostly just regular worries of a kid heading into grade 1.

VICTORIA: So I don't want to add and I don't know if my teacher's in French or not French. If he's French, I'm going to freak out.

MATT GALLOWAY: But of course there is that other thing.

VICTORIA: Like I'm kind of scared. What if I get the coronavirus and nobody knows?

MATT GALLOWAY: That might be just one of a million things running through Victoria's head. For her mom, Jackie, it's front and centre.

JACKIE ALVARADO: A little nervous. I didn't sleep very well last night. It's a very different year. So, you know, and I got a lot of, like, messages from my worried mom. Are they okay? Make sure they have the mask, you know. So a lot of parents are worried, too. So we're just trying to, you know, go with the flow and hope for the best.

MATT GALLOWAY: What are you worried about?

JACKIE ALVARADO: Her getting sick. Us getting sick.We have elderly members in our family that, you know, we saw yesterday because we're like the girls are going back to school. So for now, I think we're just going to see how things go and we might not see each other in person for a few weeks.

MATT GALLOWAY: That's gotta be hard.

JACKIE ALVARADO: that's very hard. Yeah, because the girls are very close to their grandparents. They have both sets of grandparents. And actually their great grandmother, who is my grandmother, just turned 80 on Saturday. So both great grandparents are in Canada. So we see them a lot. And for us it's a very important culture, you know, and our family for the girls they're lucky enough to know their great grandparents, but we can't see them. We really, we need to protect them.

MATT GALLOWAY: It all adds up to this being a difficult day, but Jackie knows it's not easy for anyone.

JACKIE ALVARADO: I do think we're all trying to do our very best with what we have, and it's trial and error. I mean, unfortunately, we're trying we're doing trial and error with human lives, maybe. Right. But it is the truth. Nobody knows exactly what the magic formula is for two to handle this pandemic. So I think our government, although I don't agree with 100 per cent of their decisions, I do think that, you know, they're trying the best and they're going with what makes more sense. We don't know what the schools are going to shut down in two weeks already. Schools, schools for the French system started last week and the rate the cases in Quebec set a rate, you know, going up already. So that's very concerning. And today we got an email saying, mentioning all the schools already that have going into quarantine because teachers and students have tested positive already. Schools in Westmont schools are run around the neighbourhood. So who's next? Bancroft?

MATT GALLOWAY: Luckily for Victoria, that's all stuff for the adults to worry about. She just wants to get on with the day.

VICTORIA: Well, I did say I was looking forward to math and playtime and lunch.

MATT GALLOWAY: It's a scene that's playing out in homes throughout Montreal. A few blocks away Jess Conn-Potegal is tapping his foot, trying to get his two kids, Kiana and Kingston, out the door.

JESS CONN-POTEGAL: Yeah, a couple of new extra stuff today. Little bottles of sanitzer. Does everyone have their mask?

MATT GALLOWAY: Kingston is on the ground. Velcroing his new Converse. He's got a new haircut for the first day of school and a fresh lightning bolt shaved into the side. Kiana slips on a new pair of black and white Vans.

JESS CONN-POTEGAL: My daughter always takes the longest.

MATT GALLOWAY: Ready?

KIANA: Yes. I'm definitely ready.

MATT GALLOWAY: You're definitely ready?Alright let's walk to school. Is that okay?

JESS CONN-POTEGAL: Yeah, let's go.

MATT GALLOWAY: Awesome. So how's everybody feeling on the first day of school?

KINGSTON: Good.

KIANA: Good. I'm excited.

MATT GALLOWAY: What are you excited about?

KIANA: Well, I'm excited because I get to see all my friends because I haven't seen a lot of them over the summer. So I'm really excited to see all my friends, that's what I'm mostly excited about.

MATT GALLOWAY: Did you miss school a lot?

KIANA: Yes, I did. Yeah.

MATT GALLOWAY: What about for you, little man?

KINGSTON: I'm excited to go to school because, well, yeah, because I haven't seen a lot of my friends and because I want to go to grade 2.

MATT GALLOWAY: How bout you, Dad, are you excited?

JESS CONN-POTEGAL: Yeah, I'm excited. Yeah, I'm. I think it's great. I mean, the kids have been out of school for. What is it like? How long is it guys? Like 7 months or something? So It's a really long time. So it's weird for our, it's weird for our rhythm as a family. This way. For the kids to be out for so long. But, yeah. So I'm excited. Obviously, it's a little bit of a weird, weird start to the year, this year. But overall, yeah, I think it's gonna be good for them.

MATT GALLOWAY: Are you nervous at all about the kids going back to school?

JESS CONN-POTEGAL: I mean, yeah, sure I'm nervous. I'm nervous about a few things. Mainly just how it's gonna be handled when, you know, someone wakes up with a sore throat, which is a very normal thing to happen in elementary school. It's like these guys, you know, when someone wakes up, has a sore throat or a tummy ache or whatever, and then. And then what does that mean? What do you think it means? I mean, I don't know what the plan is. I don't even know if the school has been giving guidance on what the plan is either. You know, and then if the person gets tested and it's a positive COVID test, then what does that mean? That's like layer number two or three or five. Obviously, we want to keep these guys safe and their friend safe and then everyone in the community safe.

MG: Kiana, what was it like for you not being in school? I mean, what did you miss the most aside from your friends?

KIANA: I don't know exactly, but I miss because I like learning new stuff, because as my parents would know, I ask a lot of questions, a lot of the time. So not going to school, I had a lot more questions like for when we did home school, I was like, what does this mean? What does that mean?

JESS CONN-POTEGAL: I think all of us parents that did the home schooling kind were in the same boat of being like, wow, teachers are heroes. So, yeah, it was definitely difficult at times.

MATT GALLOWAY: We've managed to dodge the garbage cans and the vehicles to arrive here at Bancroft Elementary.

[Sound of school children]

MATT GALLOWAY: Kiana, Kingston, chatty Victoria. This is their school. It's a century old brick building, an inner city school and this morning it's buzzing. Teachers and kids are getting organized. Everyone wearing their masks. The students are being separated into grades to keep the group small. It's tough to keep kids who haven't seen each other for months apart. They march into class. I'm not allowed to follow, but my recorder is and it lands in the class of Donna Freidman-Perlin.

DONNA FREIDMAN-PERLIN: This year we're bringing your jackets in the class and you're bringing your school bags and you're going to put them on your chair or under your desk. Even your lunchboxes. This month we are not using lockers because of the sharing, okay?

MATT GALLOWAY: That's Ms. Donna to her grade 4 students. Ms. Donna teaches maths and English, and this year also hygiene and distancing.

DONNA FREIDMAN-PERLIN: I love how you've got in the line nicely and quietly. And I love how you're wearing your mask in the hallway.

MATT GALLOWAY: And that's one of the things that she's worried.

DONNA FREIDMAN-PERLIN: If you feel that you'd like to wear the mask in the classroom, you can. So I'll be wearing a visor when I have to get very close to them. A mask and a visor. Protocol is that we stay two metres from our students. So if a child needs help, they're elementary, it's I think it's gonna be hard to stay two metres away. So, I mean, I think I will go to their desk, but limit it, maybe for two minutes. And it's just hard because they may not be getting the support that they always needed, but you may have to give it from a distance.

MATT GALLOWAY: Now, there are precautions, lots of them, but there are also plans in place in case a student gets sick.

DONNA FREIDMAN-PERLIN: If somebody gets sick, well, the protocol is right now, if we see a child that has symptoms in our classroom, we do have an isolation room where we send the child and the principal or another teacher will be there to take the child's temperature. We call the parent. The parent has to come and pick up their child. And then what happens is the parent has to call the number and the number directs them if they have to go for a COVID test. In the meantime, we have to tell the principal who else the child's been sitting around and they have to inform the parents. And any teacher that's come into contact also will have to call the number and see if we have to go for the COVID test or not.

MATT GALLOWAY: It's one thing to teach grade four with all the challenges that brings, but Francois Lukawecki has to get creative to teach music during a pandemic.

FRANCOIS LUKAWECKI: So there's no singing, which is really hard as a music teacher, especially with the little guys. But I insist, I want to make it fun for the kid. Even though they'll be at their desk, they're not gonna be moving around. For example, we're doing a desktop drumming.

[Sound of desktop drumming]

MATT GALLOWAY: This is what music class will sound like this year with no choir and no concerts.

FRANCOIS LUKAWECKI: Using your hands, we're doing body percussion. All of that stuff can be done without singing. So different hand positions, different claps and slaps. And so there's a lot of really good learning in that sense. And I will say this there is a small part of me that's grateful for the opportunity to be forced to think outside the box and revisit my teaching and come up with new activities, because I know that in future years post-COVID a lot of these activities are going to stay with me.

MATT GALLOWAY: Francois is worried about teaching, but he's also not happy with how the whole return to school has been handled.

FRANCOIS LUKAWECKI: I think the government hasn't done a very good job in preparing the families and especially the teachers. I think a lot of the directives have been very vague or contradictory. I don't have a child, but if I had a child I know I would consider if it was possible teaching my class, my and my student at home myself, if I had the financial means, the time and it was allowed by the government. There's no doubt in my mind that I would be homeschooling my kid right now. There's there's some anger there for sure. I think teachers really feel like they were not consulted by the government at all. This is like during the first weeks in March. Up until now, there's really been a feeling that we're being given information at the last minute and this information changes often and sometimes for reasons that are not explained to us. So I'm very concerned about that.

MATT GALLOWAY: Evelyn Alfonzi hears that anger and that worry. She's the interim director of the school board, and it's her job to take all that into consideration while ensuring that schools stay open.

EVELYN ALFONZI: I understand that that parents are nervous. Firstly, they've been out of school, students have been out of schools for a very long period of time. So there's some kind of comfort there. And the fact that they've been at home within their own family bubble, let's say. I think it'll take a little bit of getting used to and it'll take a little bit of realising that rules are being followed. Staff is making sure that all of the directives are being followed and we need we need to trust the system. We need to trust the authorities who are giving us the directives to follow.

MATT GALLOWAY: Cheryl Wiltzer has been watching the kids go in, but she's not paying attention to the masks and the distancing.

CHERYL WILTZER: We're not here to like start off with a maths test on day one to see how far behind we are. We're here to listen and to keep an eye out for the children that may be more at risk.

MATT GALLOWAY: Cheryl Wiltzer is the school's psychologist and it's her job to look out for the students mental health, to look for signs that kids may not be doing okay after months at home.

CHERYL WILTZER: Some of them, their parents have lost their jobs or housing or child abuse or so we can't look at it as a one size fits all. We have to look at it as an individual thing and the goal is to build their resiliency and look at the positive and not the negative. I think each child has a story to tell about what they've learned from this experience, what they can do. It's, you know, to build their resilience. What kind of things they've done that maybe they haven't tried before, but they've had to try to stay connected to others, to stay physically and psychologically healthy, to change their routine and get through this adversity because kids heal naturally. Recovery is the norm.

MATT GALLOWAY: It's 3:30 p.m. and parents are lining up on the sidewalk outside Bancroft. Some are anxious. After all, for many, it's the longest they've been away from their children in months. The students begin to spill out of the doors. The youngest standing on tiptoes trying to catch a glimpse of mom or dad. There are hugs and some tears. Jess is at the school gate ready to meet kingston and Kiana.

MATT GALLOWAY: How are you guys?

JESS CONN-POTEGAL: Good.

MATT GALLOWAY: How was school?

KIANA: Good.

JESS CONN-POTEGAL: I mean, it was very quiet in the house with the kids today. Both of us were working. You're just like, wow, it's so quiet. But no, I mean, I'm excited for them. I'm a little bit nervous. Yeah and now I feel like instead of looking at case counts every day of, like all over the world now, it's all about like which people from what schools. It just becomes this bit of a game of that.

MATT GALLOWAY: What was the best thing about being back in school?

KINGSTON: I could see all my friends.

MATT GALLOWAY: Do you have homework?

KIANA: No. No homework.

MATT GALLOWAY: No homework on the first day. So what do you get to do tonight?

KIANA: Watch TV.

KINGSTON: Play video games.

JESS CONN-POTEGAL: Yeah, right.

MATT GALLOWAY: Ms. Donna comes out, still wearing her mask and chatting with parents and students alike.

DONNA FREIDMAN-PERLIN: All the anxiety I had. The kids listen very well. Even they came in, they were grade 4. They kept their mask on for a bit at the beginning. Then they're like, Miss, I'm hot. And of course, in the class they're allowed to take it off, but then during the day, they would want to put it back on again and then they would take off, which was fine, but they would wear it in the hallway. And they were very cautious themselves. They wanted to sanitize their hand or wash their hands. One kid though, near the end of day, he's like, Miss, can you breathe? And I'm like, yes, I can breathe. But Ms, you've been in that mask all day, can you please take it off? And I said, well, no, as a teacher, I keep my mask on all day. The visor I did take on and off depending on the proximity I was to the students. But I told him, I reassured him that on my spare I went out for a walk, so I took the mask off and I when I ate my lunch in my room by myself, the mask was off. But it was cute that he was so concerned.

MATT GALLOWAY: Ms. Donna is optimistic about making this work.

DONNA FREIDMAN-PERLIN: I think the rest of the year is going to go well, but always there's always still the unknown because of COVID. But we are doing all the proper precautions and hopefully there'll be minimal transmission. I don't know if there'll be zero, but hopefully we can keep it low.

MATT GALLOWAY: From across the schoolyard, I hear a familiar voice.

VICTORIA: Jonathan, he's in my class.

MATT GALLOWAY: Victoria.

VICTORIA: When we first went to class, we had a life forms we had to put in our agenda. And then we drew our family. I drew my, I drew me, daddy and mommy and my big sister.

MATT GALLOWAY: Excitedly sharing all the details of her first day in grade 1.

VICTORIA: So after we ate lunch, then we went outside again. Then we went there. We drew like the little portrait thing.

MATT GALLOWAY: How are you feeling now that it's day one is done?

JACKIE ALVARADO: Still, you know, getting through it. You know, lots of things in my mind, but we'll take it a day at a time, I guess. We have no choice.

MATT GALLOWAY: Are you going to be here tomorrow once like now this is, you know, day wone is done?

JACKIE ALVARADO: I think it's gonna be less chaotic. So I think we're going to have more a sense of the real routine and then we'll take it from there. Yeah, I think so, yes.

VICTORIA: And then we had to, so it's like to present and then after we have an hour time to read and that's it. I just like it.

MG: You've been listening to A Very Different Year. It was produced by Joana Draghici, Lara O'Brien and The Current's documentary editor, Liz Hoath. Since schools have reopened in Quebec, there have been over 100 schools with at least one reported case of COVID-19, according to the independent website cogie Covid Ecoles Quebec. The Quebec government's numbers are lower, with 47 schools that have reported at least one case. In many parts of the country this is the first day of school after many months away. Love to know how it went. You can reach us through the website. Go to cbc.ca/thecurrent. Click on the contact link. You can email us thecurrent@cbc.ca or tweet us @TheCurrentCBC. The CBC News is next. And then.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: I feel like if you build it up inside, it's just gonna tear you down more.

MG: As we've been hearing, going back to school during a pandemic is fuelling mixed emotions for many students, especially those who struggle with their mental health. We'll look at what supports students need to help them navigate the complexities of class and COVID. It is a very different school year. And more on that coming up in about six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. Stay with us.

[Music]

How will the return to school affect children’s mental health?

Guests: Thea Armenti, Zainab Jamal, Tyler Black

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

[Music: theme]

MG: Still to come, the freshly minted leader of the federal Conservative Party, Erin O'Toole, is here. But first, student mental health needs during a pandemic.

[Music: theme]

SOUNDCLIP

[School bell]

VOICE 1: He was very sad. His mood was down. He did not thrive being home.

VOICE 2: It's been pretty lonely.

VOICE 3: Students needs more mental support in this time for anxiety and mental issues.

VOICE 4: Talk with people about how you're feeling, just to get it out of you, because if you build it up inside, it's just going to tear you down more.

MG: The prospect of heading back to school this fall has been welcomed by some and been a source of stress for others. And we got a pretty good sense of that yesterday when so many of you called into our special Back to School edition of No Easy Answers. We also heard that the pandemic has been an emotionally difficult time for many students. And for kids who are already struggling with mental health issues, these past six months have been especially challenging. 16-year-old Thea Armenti lives in Welland, Ontario, and is heading into grade 11 this year. Thea, good morning.

THEA ARMENTI: Good morning.

MG: How are you doing?

THEA ARMENTI: I'm great. How are you?

MG: I'm well, thank you. But these are strange times and these last six months or so have been really hard I think on everybody. Tell me a little bit about what they've been like for you.

THEA ARMENTI: They've definitely been really rough, especially like mental health wise, and it's really crazy, like seeing some people not even really doing anything to prevent stuff. But it's great to see that a lot of people are taking precautions.

MG: When you say that it's been tough, mental health wise, tell me a little bit about what you've gone through.

THEA ARMENTI: Well, at the start of it, I was definitely kind of down spiralling in depression and like, I was really anxious about the whole COVID-19 thing and it was just a lot to take in. And knowing that we didn't have any information about going back to school, especially, it was just a lot on my brain, I guess.

MG: You have anxiety and you suffer from depression as well?

THEA ARMENTI: Yes.

MG: And so, how would that anxiety manifest itself during this pandemic? I mean, school is going along fine and then all of a sudden March break happens and you end up not going back to school. What happened then?

THEA ARMENTI: At first when it stopped, like when we couldn't go back to school. I was definitely relieved because it was like the stress of just going back to school in general with a lot on me. But knowing that I have like maybe I thought I would have a little bit longer of a March break at least.

MG: But not this long?

THEA ARMENTI: Yeah, not this long. Definitely.

MG: And you were also, am I getting this right? You were diagnosed with ADHD during the panic?

THEA ARMENTI: Yes. That was definitely kind of a surprise. But also it wasn't really a surprise. It's just crazy how, like the pandemic sort of made me realize that maybe there was more stuff going on.

MG: You mentioned that sometimes you see people and maybe people aren't wearing a mask or people are standing too close to each other. What does that mean in terms of of the virus itself and your anxiety around the virus itself? How are you feeling? If you take school out of it, how are you just feeling about the time that we're in right now?

THEA ARMENTI: Oh, I'm definitely really anxious every day because, like, I don't know who has it and who doesn't. And I know a lot of people don't want to wear masks and like, knowing that and being around people, I'm like, well, am I going to get it? Am I not going to get it? Like, I'm trying to take precautions, but other people aren't taking precautions. So it's just kind of making me more anxious.

MG: What have you been doing to cope with this? Because this has gone on six, seven, eight months and who knows when this is going to end. So what are you doing to cope with this?

THEA ARMENTI: I'm trying to get more into artsy stuff like during the pandemic because I'm a really artsy person and I like singing and drawing and whatever. So I feel like that's really helping a light in, like the uncertain times.

MG: One of the things that you did was you wrote a song for a history project. Tell me about this song and where did it come from?

THEA ARMENTI: So the story behind this song was that for history we were doing our final culminating assignments and I was going to do the writing original song and make a poster. But I thought that writing an original song that like writing an original song and composing it and everything, but it actually meant like you just have to rewrite an already existing song.

MG: But you wrote your own song?

THEA ARMENTI: Yeah, it was ia lot of fun, actually. Like, I really enjoyed it.

MG: Let's have a listen. This is a little bit of the song.

SOUNDCLIP

[Original song written and performed by Thea Armenti]

MG: Tell me a little bit more about how writing a song like that would help ease some of the anxiety that you'd be feeling?

THEA ARMENTI: I think it was just because I had so much going through my mind and it just really helped getting everything out. And honestly, it was really fun writing about it because it really like got that sort of stress out.

MG: This is the time of the year when students like yourself are getting set to head back into school. And obviously everything is different now than it was six months, seven months ag.o in Ontario, where you are, students can either go back into the classroom or you can do online learning. Which one did you choose?

THEA ARMENTI: I chose to do online learning, mostly because I feel like the crowd is having to go to school, just the way it's going to be working, I feel like that'll be way too stressful on me.

MG: What do you think you'll miss about school?

THEA ARMENTI: Basically, the only thing I really miss about school is all the arts programs because drama especially, I really love that class and the teachers there. But that class especially, you have to kind of interact with people and work together and it's kind of hard to do that online.

MG: This is such a tricky thing. I mean, there are a lot of students, I think, who find themselves in the situation that you do. What would you say to another student who's feeling anxious about this time and about all of the changes that they've gone through?

THEA ARMENTI: Honestly, I think it'd be really great to talk with people like maybe family members or something about how you're feeling just to get it out of you, because I feel like if you build it up inside, it's just going to tear you down more.

MG: And that's helped you, being open and talking to your family about what you're going through.

THEA ARMENTI: Yeah, definitely.

MG: Grade 11 is a big grade. I wish you the best of luck. And I hope you keep writing more songs. That was great.

THEA ARMENTI: Thank you.

MG: Thea, thanks so much.

THEA ARMENTI: No problem.

MG: Thea Armenti is going into grade 11 in Welland, Ontario. One of the main arguments for getting kids back to school is that their mental health has been suffering without it. They've had months away from their school friends and away from trusted teachers. But as we heard from Thea, the idea of being back in the classroom can also be a source of stress. Zainab Jamal is a high school guidance counsellor who is on leave right now as she trains to become a psychotherapist. And Dr. Tyler Black is a child and adolescent psychiatrist and medical director of emergency psychiatry at the B.C. Children's Hospital. Good morning to you both.

ZAINAB JAMAL: Good morning.

MG: Zainan Jamal, what goes through your mind when you hear Thea talk about her struggles to deal with everything that the pandemic has thrown at her?

ZAINAB JAMAL: I feel like I can, it's exactly what I heard from students in the end of last school year and what I imagine they're going through over the summer and getting ready for this year, which is, you know, the past few months have really shone a light on a lot of stuff that's going on in the world, in our own lives, our own anxiety about being with other people. But also what really struck me with Thea is her developing a really positive, engaging coping skill. So I thought that was really great. But I could hear and I relate to the back to school anxiety and yes, going back to school, I think will hopefully help adolescents with their mental health. But I think it brings another set of mental health challenges as well.

MG: Dr. Black, there is this argument, as I said, that kids need to get back into school for the sake of their mental health. What's your response to that argument?

TYLER BLACK: Well, I mean, it's definitely better that we have kids going back to school when it's safe to do so. And every community will be different with respect to its parameters and the virus. But, you know, one of the things that I've been trying to advocate for quite a bit is just this remembrance and knowledge that prior to the pandemic, there are many challenges with with school and stress, with all sorts of things that come with starting school. We know that kids will be under more stress. So I really hope that school districts, parents and anyone working with kids is just going to be very forgiving during a more stressful time and focus a little bit more on health, safety and distressing children.

MG: For parents and a lot of students as well, there are very high expectations for what going back to school is going to mean. Do you think those expectations are realistic?

TYLER BLACK: They are realistic in the sense that, you know, it's great to see kids getting back and once kids get back, they're really good at adapting to whatever the new sort of standard is. I think it is a little bit unrealistic to think that we're going back to sort of the way things used to be. Schools are going to look very different during this time. There's going to be lots of brief shut downs as as children develop symptoms of viral illnesses, which is a very common thing to happen in a school. And there's gonna be lots of sort of start, start and stops. And it might be a little bit disorienting on that way. So I think I think it might be a little unrealistic to expect that things will be like they were last year.

MG: Zainab, you were saying that some of what Thea was talking about sounded familiar. You were a guidance counsellor at a very, very busy high school in Toronto in the spring. What sort of things were students worrying about? What did they tell you about what life was like as the pandemic took hold?

ZAINAB JAMAL: So for the students I worked with, I was in the north of Park and Flemington Park. Students really talked a lot about feeling very isolated, like in their apartments, feeling like they couldn't really go anywhere except maybe onto the balcony and also feeling really, really anxious about doing well in school and being able to do well in life, but also really nervous about getting sick for a lot of these students. Also, they were going out to work in grocery stores because parents had lost their jobs. So they were worried about finances, about school, about health and about personal safety. So really a huge host of issues.

MG: Dr. Black, is that familiar in terms of what you saw and what you heard in the emergency department?

TYLER BLACK: Yeah, I think children have been managing quite a bit of stress and children are always they're always very good antennas for the stress around them. They might not be able to fully understand all the meanings behind it. But even at very young ages, children can detect when there is stress around them. So children seeing parents and teachers and just the general public in so much distress is certainly something that they're attuned to.

MG: How does that, you were hinting at this, but how does that compare to pre pandemic times when they were in school? Because stress now is, you know, amplified for all of us, I think, given what we're all in the midst of. But school can be tricky no matter you know, what's happening in the outside world. So what was happening that you were seeing, Doctor, in the pre pandemic times, as they say, in the before time?

TYLER BLACK: Well, one of my main jobs is in the emergency department at a major hospital. And so when it's school days and school months, we actually are much more busy. Kids take on much more stress during school days and school months. We see more distress presenting an anxiety and mood problems as well. Even of suicidal thinking and suicide attempts, these things all come up during the school year and then they settle down during summer months and break months and break times. So. So it is really important to remember that there were tons of distressing things happening in school before the pandemic. And this is adding a level of stress. Kids can adapt. It is still something that's very possible to do. It just requires so much flexibility. And like I was saying before, just a lot of forgiveness. I don't think that there's a lot to be gained by pushing really hard on the academics right now and pushing really hard on the expectations. Getting kids back. Getting kids socialising. Getting kids back into the school groove will be enough. And I really hope that colleges start announcing soon that there'll be much more lax on the requirements for grade eleven and grade twelve kids, because those those kids are feeling the pressure of trying to meet the university bar during a pandemic.

MG: Zainab, you'd see that right through your office as a guidance counsellor.

ZAINAB JAMAL: Absolutely. And that was a huge thing for my students in grade 11 and 12 last year. Really feeling like this, you know, my whole future is is at stake here. It's a huge stress. Yeah.

MG: How do you answer that? Because we heard a little bit of that. We did a phone in yesterday. We heard from students and teachers and parents across the country. How do you answer those concerns from the students who worry that their future could be in jeopardy? They don't know what marks are going to be used for post-secondary admission, whether they'll have the marks, whether they'll end up with, you know, if they're doing quad masters, two classes that they hate and they struggle with at the beginning of the year that might determine those marks for, you know, high school or for university or college graduation. What do you say to those students?

ZAINAB JAMAL: I think it's a really hard one because for years and years we've been telling students, focus on your marks, focus on your grades, do well in school. And now all of a sudden we're changing the narrative to be don't worry so much about your marks. Your marks aren't the most important thing. But I think if we can, I think that the. Here is do your best and everyone's gonna do their best. And the school is going to do their very best to support you. We've got community partners who can do their best to support you, but try to, as you're doing the work, really develop ways to manage the stress and distress that's coming up.

MG: The stress is not equal. Have a listen to Marva Ferguson. She's an assistant professor in the Department of Child Studies and Social Work at Mount Royal University in Calgary. And she points out that the past six months have been a different experience, in particular for students of colour.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: What we have been hearing is that students, especially racialized students, are experiencing trauma, the trauma associated with anti-black racism, the trauma associated with observing their parents panicking at times, or going through the motions of teaching them about what to do when they are on the streets, when they are out with their friends, when they probably see a police officer. When teachers are meeting with students, they really have to start asking the questions. What's that like for you? Students sometimes want to hear. They want to be validated knowing that they are in an environment that we're not equal.

MG: Zainab Jamal, you were working in Thorncliffe Park, which is a dense, immigrant rich community, one of the best neighbourhoods in the city of Toronto. But it's a bit of a landing point in many ways for people from all around the world. How important is it for educators to be aware that some students will have different layers of stress when they come back to school?

ZAINAB JAMAL: I think it's hugely important. I think that always everybody who comes into a school is coming from somewhere with something. And I think coming back this year, people are coming back with even more. And even just to begin with, an openness to an awareness of that fact is is a great starting point. But I think it cannot be stressed enough that everybody some some students are coming in with more, as you say, more layers.

MG: Dr. Black, is that what you're seeing and what you would be hearing as well in the emergency department, that these are times of a pandemic, also times of reckoning around anti-black racism. There's a lot that students are coping with.

TYLER BLACK: Absolutely. And it's really important remember, in any distressing time, whether it's a natural disaster or in this case, a pandemic, it can be anything that hits the economy hard. The brunt of the challenge is almost always borne by the most marginalized in our society. And we saw it, we saw this in the states with the level of coronavirus impact on black and Latino communities, especially native communities in in the United States. And here in Canada, we worry the most about health economics and how that impacts on Aboriginal, Metis and First Nation Inuit population. So these things always trickle down to the most marginalized of us. If you're someone who's on the poverty line, you are hit much harder than if you're someone who has some extra spare money.

MG: There's also just the stress of going back to school in the midst of a pandemic. Sarah Lennox has two kids at home with her in Brantford, Ontario. They're waiting for school to start back up. Listen to her.

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VOICE: The biggest stressor for my kids is wearing the masks all day. And then they're also scared about getting sick. They're scared about bringing it home because we've kind of said, hey, it's important for you guys to wear the mask. It's important for you guys to wash your hands because you don't want to bring this home and get grandma or grandpa sick or get us sick even and it could have disastrous consequences.

MG: Tyler Black, what should educators do to try to mitigate that stress?

TYLER BLACK: I think it's really important to have those discussions with kids, but also in the way of, you know, there is a place for some optimism. You know, if people do what they're supposed to do and if things go the way they're supposed to go, the chance of the chance of illness is low to the individual family. And we don't want to make kids feel like they have to be the gatekeepers of their adults, which is one of the one of the flips that I often see happening, where often it's the child that's managing the stress and distress of the parent in the in the situation or or for the school that the kids are the ones being blamed when things don't go well. We've seen this in the States. When a college, you know, opens and then there's parties and then the schools quickly blame the children for being children. So so we see this we see this happen from time to time. It's so important for the adults to be adults in the room. They can bear a little bit more of the stress than kids can and they should.

MG: What does that mean in terms of what they, those adults are thinking about when it comes to delivering curriculum versus creating some sort of social or emotional connection?

TYLER BLACK: Well, I just think that the importance of the individual academics is much lower right now. And I hope that the curriculum is being modified in a way that there is such a such an over an overemphasis on social connexion, which is something that every child I've worked with has saying that they're missing, except for those who have that sort of neurodiversity of not needing it. And and really focussing on that on that lack of connexion. And then I really hope that adults can just think back to times in their life where they learnt something that wasn't in school and how important it was for them. There's lots of ways for us to learn and kids brains can pick up information and tons of different ways. It doesn't have to be a strict academic curriculum right now. That's really one of the messages I've been trying to get out.

MG: Zainab Jamal, as a guidance counsellor, what would your advice be to students who are heading back into the classroom, whether it's today or whether they're already back in or they're heading later this week or next week and they're dealing with a lot of stress?

ZAINAB JAMAL: Yeah, I would say two things. I would say as much as you can think about what is in your control, because there's lots of stuff that's not. But there are things that are in your control. And I would also as Dr. Black was saying really encourage students to have really changed their expectations of themselves. So get right down. Like, lower them, just show up. Sometimes showing up and saying hi is the best you can do. And I think we have to be able to be OK with that.

MG: Are there little things that students can do? You talk about the idea of a downward spiral or things can kind of pile on and suddenly you feel the weight. Are there things that they can do to create I don't know, an upward spiral?

ZAINAB JAMAL: I'm so happy. Yes. And I'm so this is my if every day I'm students can do and teachers, you can set this up in high school and your three hours in the morning. Something physical, something social, something engaging or interesting to them that's not on a screen. And something that feels like a success test. Something they can just check off their list. If students can do even three of those things every day, even one or two of those things every day, it can go a long way in helping get to an upward spiral.

MG: We just have a minute or so left. Dr. Black, are you worried at all about the longtail effects of this on children's mental health?

TYLER BLACK: Absolutely. This is this is something that the textbook on COVID-19 is being written as we go along. We're learning a lot about, we're learning a lot about the longtail effects and what are called the long haulers in adults. And we're barely scratching the surface on this on kids. Because, of course, kids we're very phase delayed. There was so much initial belief that children couldn't get this virus, but that was also artificially selected because most parents were keeping their kids home. As we've sort of gone through August, we've certainly seen a number of young people get this virus. And what it may, may do has some challenges. So it's really important for for us to just, again, be very forgiving. This is a stressful time and also just keep our eye out for as as information changes. A lot of people think that the science is changing when, in fact the science is being done. And this is what it's like when science is being done. You think. One thing, you test it and then you find something else. So I really just hope that people have faith in the scientific process. Science is the way to save lives in this situation.

MG: And be forgiving. That's a really important message. It's great to speak with you both about this. Thank you.

TYLER BLACK: Thank you so much.

ZAINAB JAMAL: Thank you.

MG: Zainab Jamal is a high school guidance counsellor in Toronto. She's on leave right now as she trains to become a psychotherapist. Dr. Tyler Black is a child and adolescent psychiatrist and medical director of emergency psychiatry at the B.C. Children's Hospital. Any thoughts on this? We would love to hear from you. That idea of perhaps changing what we're expecting from school in terms of what kids will be learning and the curriculum is a powerful one. You can e-mail us thecurrent@cbc.ca. Tweet us @TheCurrentCBC or head to the website, cbc.ca/thecurrent. Click on the contact link. Your regional update is next. And then, the new leader of the Conservative Party, Erin O'Toole, might be in opposition now, but he is not wasting time before letting Canadians know that he's looking for a promotion. He's next. I'm Matt Galloway. The Current is back in 90 seconds. Don't go anywhere.

[Music]

Erin O'Toole says Conservatives won't necessarily trigger election when Parliament resumes

Guests: Erin O’Toole, Althia Raj, Rob Russo

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

We must continue to point out Liberal failings and corruption, but we must also show Canadians our vision for a stronger, prosperous and more united Canada. Canada can and must do better. And Conservatives will work hard to earn the trust and confidence of Canadians in the next election.

MG: That's the new leader of the Conservative Party of Canada, Erin O'Toole. After parliament resumes on the 23rd of September, that election could come at any time. Erin O'Toole says his party will be ready and he is on the line with me this morning. Erin O'Toole, good morning.

ERIN O'TOOLE: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Congratulations.

ERIN O'TOOLE: Thank you very much. Good to be with you.

MG: We just heard a little bit of that acceptance speech that you gave. And in it, you called the Liberal Party corrupt. You said the Justin Trudeau has failed this country. There will be a confidence vote when parliament returns and a throne speech as well. Should we assume then that you will bring down this government?

ERIN O'TOOLE: Well, you know what they say about making assumptions, Matt? I wouldn't assume that because Justin Trudeau is trying to force an election to avoid accountability. You know, throughout the pandemic, he's avoided accountability because of very spotty sitting of parliament. He used prorogation to stop difficult questions about the We charity scandal at various committees, which were the only functions of parliament working in the last few months. And for him to have an election before he really presents a plan for Canada in the economic rebuild post CERB, post first wave, preparing for the second wave, wouldn't be living up to my parliamentary responsibilities in a parliamentary democracy. So we will see. We will propose alternative visions, but we will also continue to hold them to account.

MG: What do you want to see in the throne speech that would let you support it?

ERIN O'TOOLE: I want to see a plan to get people working and to get people working in a way that respects the differences across our country. You know, whether it's natural resources, whether it's manufacturing, whether it's agriculture, whether it's a startup. Ottawa should not be picking winners and losers. They shouldn't be keeping whole regions of the country down due to ideology. We should be trying to respect the economic potential at every part of this country, get people working, get the economy moving, because the last six to eight months have been very difficult for families, small businesses. There's a lot of concern out there. And I think the best thing we can do is to show confidence in all parts of our economy.

MG: And yet you might be thrust into an election at anytime sooner rather than later. What makes you the right person to lead this country as prime minister?

ERIN O'TOOLE: Well, I think I have a track record of serving the country long before I ever ran for politics, Matt. You know, when I graduated high school from my small town in the Toronto suburbs, I joined the military. That gave me an amazing opportunity to live and serve and see all parts of this country. I finished my service, went into the private sector, worked as a lawyer in the private sector and for a large manufacturer in Ontario. So I understand the needs of job creators, but I always gave back, whether it was to military families or working with a variety of charities and non-profits to whom much is given, much is expected was our family mantra. And I've tried to bring that sort of small class ideals, middle class ideals to to my public life. I'm not a celebrity, but I've committed my life to this country.

MG: What does it matter that you're not a celebrity?

ERIN O'TOOLE: Well, I think that's how Mr. Trudeau has really carved his prime ministership, Matt. You know, if you look at the foreign policy, it generally was about the prime minister making splashy trips on behalf of our country. And it was all about him, whether it was India, whether it was some of the other engagements, including with the United States, rather than taking a serious approach and trying to stand up for our national interests and the interests of Canadian workers and and our security partners. It always seemed to be about Mr. Trudeau, his image or Twitter. I think Canadians are a little tired of that. We need someone who's going to fight for, fight for the well-being of Canadians at a very difficult time.

MG: Let's talk about what you would do if you ended up in this job. You have promised that you'd balance the budget within a decade. We're in the midst of a pandemic. We have no idea how long this is going to last. There is a deficit that is in the hundreds of billions of dollars and will no doubt grow as the pandemic continues. What kind of promise is that to budget, to balance a budget in a decade, not knowing really when the economic crisis that we're in is going to end?

ERIN O'TOOLE: Well, what I said was over a decade or so, because there is going to be no rapid plan to get back to balance, Matt. But we have to make sure that if we're basically indebting our children, we're doing it for strategic, smart reasons. So if it's about getting people back to work, it's about helping the vulnerable. Reinforcing some long-term care homes, working with our provincial partners to prepare for a second wave,that's great. If it's hundreds of millions of dollars handed out to the charitable friends of Mr. Morneau and Mr. Trudeau, that is disgraceful in a pandemic. It's crazy how much we've seen already about the Liberals helping some of their friends and lobbyist; a former MP who is a Liberal MP just eight months ago, seems to have gotten a sole source contract when parliament wasn't sitting and $343 billion were pushed out the door very quickly. So we're not proposing any anything serious in terms of cuts. We want to make sure the money is well spent.

MG: But the money has already been spent. So if we have a deficit that's $350 billion, goes up above that and you're saying it might be a decade or so, you will have to cut, won't you?

ERIN O'TOOLE: No, if we grow the economy, Matt, no. But here's the reality. Under the last few years, Mr. Trudeau, we've seen about $150 billion leave the country. That's investments in expanding jobs that are already here or creating new ones just before the pandemic. We saw Warren Buffett pull his investment out of Canada because of the illegal rail blockades. There is a sense that nothing can get built, nothing can get done in Canada. And so even though we're we're generally seen as one of the world's leading democracies, a safe place to invest, that has changed in the last few years because of the ideological approach of Mr. Trudeau. And I think we need to get people working and have a less of an "Ottawa-knows-best" attitude.

MG: One of the other things that people are focusing on and perhaps this will come up in the throne speech would appear. Reports are suggesting that that there will be a green focus on rebuilding the economy. In the last election, your party promised to repeal the carbon tax. Is that still your plan?

ERIN O'TOOLE: Yes, it is. But one thing I will say, Matt, is I don't think we had smart and effective enough policies on climate change and environment. I'm a leader that's willing to say we have to do better in some areas. And that is one for every time we're seeing that carbon taxes is not smart because it's not competitive and it actually doesn't reduce greenhouse gases — even the parliamentary budget officer says it would need to be tripled to have any of that impact — we have to show not just what we're going to tear down, what are we going to build, what are we going to do to reduce emissions, to mitigate against some of the impacts on the environment of manufacturing, resource production? I think we have to show Canadians we can do both. Not through tax, but through partnerships, through technology, working with the provinces to get emissions down. That is my commitment.

MG: A year ago though, I mean, most Canadians voted for parties that supported a carbon tax. That's two thirds of voters. Doesn't that make you out of step with Canadian voters?

ERIN O'TOOLE: No. You know, people vote, as you know well, Matt, because I've listened to you interview people over the years, people vote for a variety of reasons. The economy and uncertainty about jobs and wellbeing of families and that sort of thing is probably the biggest driver. The environment is one. But I would not suggest that all of the parties on the centre left received a vote from Canadians on this one issue.

MG: But they all did support the idea of a carbon tax, and most of them supported a carbon tax that was higher than what the Liberals had put in place.

ERIN O'TOOLE: Yeah, and most have very little idea of how the economy works. Here's an example, Matt. In our area of southern Ontario, all of the manufacturers compete, whether it's in auto parts or what have you, against Michigan, against Ohio, against Pennsylvania, where there is no input price on carbon. So we have to make sure if we do something that implies a tax or makes us less competitive, are we going to see jobs being swept away? We've seen that in Ontario already. So how when the parliamentary budget officers is already saying it's not having an emission reduction effect in the way the government promised, why don't we do something smarter? Why don't we get emissions down without chasing investment and jobs away? That will be my commitment.

MG: I guess that just the last question on this is that, I mean, there are Nobel Prize winning economists, there are, you know, the Business Council of Canada, the CEOs of corporations like Suncor support the idea of a carbon tax. So what do you know that they don't?

ERIN O'TOOLE: Well, I've worked in the private sector and they want certainty, Matt.

MG: But they've also supported a carbon tax.

ERIN O'TOOLE: They would rather have certainty. So in the case of Suncor, for example, Alberta does have a large emitter price on carbon. That is a provincial led approach. In fact, when Mr. Trudeau first said he was going to price carbon, he said he was going to leave it to the provinces. That is going to be my approach, partnering, because many provinces do things a different way. But we have to be very careful. We are integrated with the United States in terms of their economy and if we do something radically different to them — and remember, Mr. Trudeau began this under the Obama presidency — they didn't follow his lead. The brilliance of Brian Mulrooney years ago on acid rain was an acid rain treaty was making sure that Canada and the U.S. were in lockstep so that our economy didn't suffer. So until until there's a global approach to this, which is what the Nobel prize economists talk about, how can Canada do meaningful measures to reduce emissions without putting us dramatically out of step with countries we compete with for jobs and investments.

MG: Let me talk about one of those other countries, and that is China. You have promised a very different approach to the relationship with China. What would be different under your leadership?

ERIN O'TOOLE: Well, we have to deal with China in the reality of how they conduct themselves in world affairs and not by I think the sort of way that Mr. Trudeau would like them to seem. He was pursuing a free trade agreement, said it was a country he admired and was trying to warm relations at a time that Beijing was actually doing less in terms of working with its neighbours in that part of the world, less in terms of respecting human rights with disrupting global trade patterns. So I think we have to deal on principle with China. There's an importance with trade, but the almighty buck is not everything. And when we have our citizens being mistreated for six hundred and thirty days in prison as an act of sort of diplomatic prisoner taking, when we see this situation with the Uyghurs, South China Sea Islands. I think we have to stand with countries like Australia and show that we're going to call out bad actions and try and work around China on some of the trade issues and and other disruptions caused by the communist regime.

MG: Do you worry that taking a harder line could endanger those Canadians that are being held in those harsh conditions in China?

ERIN O'TOOLE: While their well-being is very important to me and I do think we can assess that after over 600 days, Matt, the status quo is not working.

MG: But again, if you take a harder line, is that not going to put them at greater risk?

ERIN O'TOOLE: No, I don't think so. In fact, China respects strength more than than weakness. And I think they see Mr. Trudeau as uncertain and weak when it comes to responding. And look, they also don't like when other countries highlight some of their bad actions. And so Australia in recent months has taken the lead in calling out some of the actions of Beijing. And I think we should work with primarily our five eyes allies — U.K., Australia, New Zealand and the United States — to try and provide some counterbalance to China. The other, just ignoring them, has not worked in the last few years. So I think we can stand up for our citizens and our commitment to human rights and the rule of law. We can do that together.

MG: We're in the midst of a pandemic, but we're also in the midst of a global reckoning, if I can put it that way, around racism, anti-black racism in particular. We've seen in the United States. We've seen it here in Canada. Do you believe that systemic racism exists in Canada?

ERIN O'TOOLE: I think there is racism in Canada, Matt. And I think we we have to address it as a society.

MG: Do you believe that systemic racism exists in Canada?

ERIN O'TOOLE: I think there is racism in all of the institutions. It's a matter of when you say systemic, is it part of our training? Is it part of our recruitment? Many people tossed the word around, but don't actually describe it. Some people say that systemic racism is based on outcomes for income, or outcomes in the justice system. So I've advocated on this for a few years now and tried to advocate on behalf of some of my constituents in the Toronto area that I think were discriminated against by the federal government. And I didn't get an appropriate response from the Trudeau government. So if there's anything we can do on a bipartisan basis to produce better outcomes and help help groups that have lost faith, whether in law enforcement or in departments of the federal government, to restore that faith, you will see a commitment from us.

MG: One of the examples of systemic racism that people have pointed out at length is within policing. Studies have shown black and Indigenous people in this country are much more likely to be stopped by police and subjected to police violence. And police leaders have admitted that systemic racism exists within their forces. Why do you think that is?

ERIN O'TOOLE: Well, I think this is a case where if you look at the outcomes in our justice system, there are overrepresented groups and we have to get to the bottom why that is. And there could be a whole range of reasons, including some racism within the system, including within law enforcement.

MG: And so when people say that police forces, given the fact that they are some police leaders admit that systemic racism exists, that police forces need to be defunded. That money needs to be taken from those forces and invested in, for example, social services and community services. What's your reaction to that?

ERIN O'TOOLE: I don't think it's an either or, Matt. I think you can work on the outcomes issue and income inequality totally apart from the justice system. I also think you can promote responsibility and and safe communities and and an approach to respecting law, the laws of the land and respecting, you know, neighbours' property, this sort of thing, while addressing issues within the justice system, including policing. Right now, there was a study all parties agreed on to look at concerns about racism in the RCMP. Justin Trudeau shut that study down when he prorogued parliament. So when I called, when he called me to congratulate me, I said all of the committees need to return immediately because while some were looking at the WE and very politicized scandals, the Public Safety Committee was looking at the RCMP issue specificly.

MG: Do we need another study?

ERIN O'TOOLE: To restore trust, we have to look at it on a bipartisan basis.

MG: Do we need another study on whether racism exists within the RCMP?

ERIN O'TOOLE: Well, I think we have to look at how to eliminate it. This is what's challenging in this day and age matters. A lot of people will we'll talk on Twitter and suggest that here is here is a problem we have to address. But then will not start looking at solutions. I'm the type of person, whether it's for indigenous Canadians, whether it's for Black Canadians, whether it's Canadians that are losing faith or trust in their own government, I want to see some action and I want to see tangible, measurable results. And I'll tell you, the conservatives under my leadership will partner on initiatives if we can start restoring some of this trust in our public institutions.

MG: You're speaking on a public institution, which is the CBC, and you've promised to eliminate funding for the digital arm of CBC, as well as cut funding for CBC Television and CBC News Network by 50 percent. Why would you do that?

ERIN O'TOOLE: Well, I think as the media landscape is changing, I think it's wrong for the Crown, the federal government to be competing with the Toronto Star and all these traditional media sources that are trying to monetize their digital arms, Matt. So the public broadcaster, like as you know, I used to listen to you on on the Toronto area morning show and now on The Current, there are no commercials coming up next, are there? This isn't competing with the private sector who are struggling to live in the new media environment with the tech giants from Silicon Valley. So I think increasingly we need to see it returned to its public broadcaster roots. There is no need for CBC Digital to be taking away from newspapers who are failing. Mr. Trudeau is giving more for that through subsidy and then was proposing a $600 million media bailout for the private sector that was hurting. Let's look and see what CBC does very well, which is radio, which is some public interest, which is minority language services, both French and English and some Indigenous and a little less the family feud, a little less.

MG: Family feud is one show. I mean it's been suggested that this is an issue around cultural sovereignty. That if you cut, for example, CBC television, then you end up not having an arm or a venue for television programs that tell our story. So who would tell our stories?

ERIN O'TOOLE: Canadians. In fact, you can watch Kim's Convenience and Murdoch's Mysteries and all these sorts of shows on on Netflix.

MG: Of course created by CBC.

ERIN O'TOOLE: Well, these would be produced through the Canada Production Fund. And so people can tell the stories. We also have regulatory rules on how much Canadian music, whether written, produced, is played on the radio. So there's a lot of cultural protections that are there. CBC is a broadcaster and it does some good content, particularly when it's doing public interest broadcasting, not competing against the private sector. I don't think it's fair as media companies are dying and withering on the vine, I don't think it's fair to either tilt the table in favour of the Silicon giants, and I'm willing to look at that as well. I also don't think we should be continuing to subsidize forms of the CBC that actually disrupt the media landscape for the private sector.

MG: Erin O'Toole, I hope we have the chance to talk again. In the meantime, it's been great to have you on the program this morning. Thank you.

ERIN O'TOOLE: I always enjoy it, Matt. Thank you.

MG: Erin O'Toole is the leader of the Conservative Party of Canada. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway. Our national affairs panel has been listening into our conversation with Erin O'Toole. Althia Raj, Ottawa bureau chief for Huffington Post Canada. Rob Russo, the CBC's Ottawa bureau chief. Good morning to you both.

ALTHIA RAJ: Good morning, Matt.

ROB RUSSO: Hello Matt.

MG: Althia, what did you make of what Erin O'Toole had to say? What stood out to you the most?

ALTHIA RAJ: He seems to be opening the door at opposing the government on the budget or the fiscal update, so the second confidence vote that we will expect later in the fall, perhaps in November. The words that he talked about in terms of strategic investments, I feel like there probably could be some common ground in the speech from the throne. We know that the Conservatives would very much rather have an election later rather than sooner. They feel that Mr. O'Toole is not well known as a personality to the country. There was lots of really interesting stuff and you did a good job of pressing him.

MG: Rob Russo, for you, what stood out?

ROB RUSSO: Well, you can't see the peace tower these days because the air is so thick with political trial balloons floating around there, and he floated a few of them as well. If he, he said if the government wants to do something on long-term care, that's great. He might support it. That was new. That was interesting. If the Liberals wanted to do something on systemic racism, even though you couldn't quite get him to say that it exists, he said that he would be willing to look at it on a bipartisan basis. He's willing to take on the Silicon Valley giants. That was interesting as well. So, you know, if you go down the list of some of what Mr. O'Toole is proposing, there are a lot of similarities between what he and Mr Trudeau are proposing. And in some ways, I'm sure that that's by design. Mr. O'Toole seems quite intent on trying to increase his political fortunes by adding supporters rather than subtracting, which was something that his predecessor was accused of in the past.

MG: The prime minister has talked about rebuilding the economy in a new and better way, and that's ostensibly what we'll hear about in this throne speech. Althia, what does that mean? A new and better way.

ALTHIA RAJ: Well, what he has talked about when he used those words was he talked about changes to long-term care, changes to sick days and expanding sick days availability. He's talked about the situation around people who are on disability payments. He's talked about something called vulnerable workers. I'm not actually sure what he means by that. He's talked numerous times about support for vulnerable workers, creating more equality in the country. He's talked about pharmacare, expanding pharmacare. And he told us that he wants to spur economic growth by also making investments that are in line with Canada's commitment to be net zero by 2050. He's talked about more digital and more connected being part of it. So expect more investments on expanding broadband. He's talked about women in child care. He's talked about racialized Canadians and Indigenous people confronting additional barriers. So a plan with regards to systemic racism. He's talking about young people dealing with the burdens that they have. When you look at, you know, what Joe Biden, for example, is suggesting in the United States, there you have a two trillion climate change plan. You have a promise to forgive past student debts. You have a buy-America procurement policy, $700 billion in subsidies for manufacturing and clean energy and artificial intelligence. So I think that there it's possible that, you know, there is some mimicking going on about what's happening in United States that might be part of the throne speech here as well.

MG: And so, Rob, when you hear all of those ideas being floated and then Erin O'Toole says that he's looking at balancing the budget within a decade or so, square that for me.

ROB RUSSO: Look, everyone is handing out free money. It's going to be really hard for anybody to win the next election on any kind of platform of austerity. So you've got hundreds of billions of dollars being spent. Mr. O'Toole is going to cut taxes to try and spur people to get back to work. Mr. Trudeau is proposing to, in effect, reinvent the social safety net of Canada and use this as an opportunity to take care of people who might have been dropped from that net as a result of the pandemic. So what are we going to have? We're going to have an election that's fought around what those hundreds of billions of dollars is going to be spent on rather than how much is going to be spent. Everybody now agrees that austerity is completely out the window. When you hear a Conservative leaders say ten years or so before we get back to balance, we are in a new world. We are in a new world, and we're in a world of free money, where nobody pays. It seems nobody pays for the promises that are being made.

MG: Everybody's seems. Sorry, go ahead Althia

ALTHIA RAJ: Yeah, I was gonna say I think it's also a part of the lesson learned of the 2019 election campaign. Right? Mr. O'Toole is trying really hard not to be accused of wanting to have an austerity budget. Not even sure that we will see big tax cuts and what the Conservatives should we have an election would propose for that very reason. And to Rob's earlier point, I think he's entirely right, Mr. O'Toole still spending a lot of time trying to add to his electoral coalition with regards to his climate plan, for example, that you touched a little bit upon and the sort of what he will agree to that is part of Mr. Trudeau's during speech, I think will be an indication of that. You know, that the fact that he was willing to talk about strategic investments.

MG: Should we have an election is a key phrase. And so in the last minute or so that we have, everybody seems to be saying they don't want a fall election. Rob Russo is Erin O'Toole going to have the time to introduce himself to Canadians?

ROB RUSSO: I think so. I think the Liberals, if they want to, can can survive very easily. All they need is the support of one party. Are they doing the political calculus and the math? Are they looking at Blaine Higgs, New Brunswick, who was in the middle of an election now to see if he pays a price? Yes, every government across the country is looking at Blaine Higgs to see if he pays a price. The problem with Mr. Trudeau is he doesn't know when the second wave of the pandemic might hit and whether or not he'll pay the price for that. Also, whether or not an activist agenda, which is what he is proposing, might be palatable to Canadians who are thinking a lot about can they stay healthy and can they hang onto their jobs? Are they looking more for that kind of basic protection or are they looking to dream a little bit about what the 21st century might look like?

MG: Althia Raj, 30 seconds to you. How likely is it that we'll go to the polls in the fall?

ALTHIA RAJ: I think it's unlikely. That being said, I think know we're so focused on the Liberals and Conservatives that we've really forgotten about the NDP. And if the NDP cannot support the speech from the throne, that seems to be focused on expanding the welfare states then why would an NDP voter continue voting for the NDP? I think the NDP is also facing a crisis of its own relevance. And so beyond a really bad poison pill in a speech from the throne or a fiscal update, I cannot see the NDP not supporting the Liberals.

MG: We'll hold you both to it, of course. Great to speak with you this morning. Thank you.

ALTHIA RAJ: Thanks Matt. Thanks Rob.

ROB RUSSO: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Althia Raj, Ottawa bureau chief for Huffington Post, Canada. Rob Russo is the CBC's Ottawa bureau chief. Any thoughts on our conversation with Erin O'Toole? You're welcome to get in touch, thecurrent@cbc.ca or the website cbc.ca/thecurrent. Click on the contact link. In the meantime, that's it for our program for today. Q With Tom Power is up next. He's speaking with Jane Fonda, has a brand new book out. Always lots to say. You'll hear that coming up after the news. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. Take care. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

[Music: Theme]

The Current Transcript for September 8, 2020

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

New books, new masks: What the first day back looked like at this Montreal school

How will the return to school affect children’s mental health?

Erin O'Toole says Conservatives won't necessarily trigger election when Parliament resumes

Sept. 8, 2020 episode transcript

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